Since we don't know that for sure, we can only go by what we see. And if they could control F8 at that particular point in time, it stands to reason they could control him at other times.
A better reason for the anti-Synth plot, IMO...
- Thread starter dswynne1
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Since we don't know that for sure, we can only go by what we see. And if they could control F8 at that particular point in time, it stands to reason they could control him at other times.
Ok, fine, I'll play devil's advocate with you. Let's assume, like you said, that the window of opportunity was only at that point. It still doesn't make sense that the Zhat Vash allowed the destruction of the fleet that would save their own people. If anything, they should have just had F8 and the other synths kill all the people at Utopia Plantia but leave the fleet intact. The Federation still would have banned them but the evacuation would still have been able to take place.
Senselessness is sort of built into the premise, though, and not in an exclusively negative way. The Admonition was stated to drive people mad - and to have been fundamentally misunderstood.
For all we know, Oh behaved perfectly rationally, for an individual intent on destroying organic life in favor of the inorganic...
Timo Saloniemi
For all we know, Oh behaved perfectly rationally, for an individual intent on destroying organic life in favor of the inorganic...
Timo Saloniemi
Not necessarily. IIRC, the Picard/Raffi flashback established that use of the synths was key to the evacuation plan.
I don’t recall that, but even if it was “key to the plan,” I’d like to know how. Would they be the fleet’s crew? It’s not like they couldn’t automate the ships or give them skeleton crews if that were the case.
They needed the synths for manpower to build the ships
Not a bad idea, maybe a few reasons they sacrificed the rescue fleet
- needed to be devastating enough to 100% ensure the ban
- thought some remnant of the synths would actually remain in the fleet if they left it. "Steralize the entire planet"
- destroys the evidence and no one would suspect romulans behind it
Not a bad idea, maybe a few reasons they sacrificed the rescue fleet
- needed to be devastating enough to 100% ensure the ban
- thought some remnant of the synths would actually remain in the fleet if they left it. "Steralize the entire planet"
- destroys the evidence and no one would suspect romulans behind it
Exactly. The idea that this can be understood from perfectly rational standpoint it ignores that the Zhat Vash have been driven mad by the revelation.
Then, again, have them build the ships, then have them kill all humans but leave said ships intact.
Except neither Oh nor Rizzo looked or acted in any way insane.
Aside from killing off a chance for her people to be saved. I think that qualifies as insane.
That’s the problem. Oh and Rizzo do not seem to be so fanatical that they’d sacrifice their entire race to destroy synths. That kind of defeats the whole purpose. Sorry, but based on what I saw, I’m just not buying that the Zhat Vash’s actions make any kind of sense even for being supposed fanatics.
Ok.
You're misunderstanding. The Romulans driven insane by the stock footage are the ones who bash their faces in with rocks. The ones who don't go nuts go Zhat. They're don't satisfy the criteria for insanity, they're just really, really stupid.
That's a fair point, aside from the stupid part. I would say they are insane but in a different way. They are so fixated on the thing they fear that it creates a myopic stance.
I'm not sure where the problem is in that storyline.
The reason is that they want to manipulate the Federation into never getting to the point of developing genuinely sentient synths like Data, and that means spooking the Feds into banning synth research and development. F8 is not the issue; preventing the development of F8 version 11.2.6 in X number of years is the point.
In the real world, the culture of white supremacy was deeply damaging to impoverished white people after the Civil War. The hostility that American apartheid created between poor whites and blacks, meant that these two oppressed groups were unable and unwilling to join together to consolidate their power and demand major concessions from the ruling class. This is why to this day, the United States has never developed a labor party, and why the U.S. has never developed the kind of comprehensive welfare state enjoyed by European nations that embraced social-democracy. To this day, levels of economic inequality are much higher and more oppressive for whites in America than for whites in European social democracies. Bigotry can be deeply self-destructive for the bigot.
So, no, I have no problem with the idea that the Zhat Vash's bigotries might lead them to some truly self-destructive behavior. Especially since "Broken Pieces" and "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part I" made it very clear that the Admonition causes brain damage and severe cognitive distortions in humanoids -- we literally saw Romulans commit suicide and self-mutilation after being exposed to it.
Would it really be plausible to kill all those people without destroying the ships? Do the Zhat Vash really care if millions of their fellow Romulans survive?
I can't make it any clearer about how problematic it is. If you can't see it, I don't know what to tell you.
And that's all fine. But yet again I will ask: Why couldn't the Zhat Vash have either waited until the evacuation was complete, or just have the synths kill all the UP personnel but save the ships?
Sorry, I'm not buying your history lesson = Zhat Vash plan analogy. There's nothing in PIC that establishes any sort of socio-economic or racial bigotry as to why the Zhat Vash allowed the fleet that would save their people to be destroyed just to make a point.
It sure could.
The fear that the Zhat Vash have is that synthetic life will end up killing organic life. If they didn't care about their own people being wiped out by the supernova, then their goal to save organic life from synthetic life would be pointless because there wouldn't be any of their people left alive to save.
The entire synth storyline is deeply stupid, it should have been holograms and even that is iffy. Androids don’t have the ability to get spontaneous sentience, that’s specifically a Soong type positronic brain thing. On the other hand holograms do have the ability for spontaneously form sentience. Sneeze in a holodeck and a character might realize their existence is a fiction.
Take Voyager and it is easy to see every Federation facility will have holographic projectors. Holograms are innately centralized making them vulnerable to hacking. It’s easy to imagine the Federation going too far with holographic personalities without realizing the consequence.
It wouldn’t even need to be a sabotage story, the holograms could be smart enough on their own to make a real rebellion as with the Horogin.
But here’s the big thing, I think the synth and Xhat Vash plot are innately flawed. With the setup of the Romulan disaster the focus should have been on that. Want android armies and backlash, make them Romulan, since they’ll be short manpower. Want stories about “others” have Romulan settlements in Federation space and on Federation member worlds. Imagine the least trusted political/racial group is now your neighbor. PIC at least goes a long way to show a wide cross section of Romulans as people which is something I would keep.
Take Voyager and it is easy to see every Federation facility will have holographic projectors. Holograms are innately centralized making them vulnerable to hacking. It’s easy to imagine the Federation going too far with holographic personalities without realizing the consequence.
It wouldn’t even need to be a sabotage story, the holograms could be smart enough on their own to make a real rebellion as with the Horogin.
But here’s the big thing, I think the synth and Xhat Vash plot are innately flawed. With the setup of the Romulan disaster the focus should have been on that. Want android armies and backlash, make them Romulan, since they’ll be short manpower. Want stories about “others” have Romulan settlements in Federation space and on Federation member worlds. Imagine the least trusted political/racial group is now your neighbor. PIC at least goes a long way to show a wide cross section of Romulans as people which is something I would keep.
Huge difference between all organic life and just the Romulans. Zhat Vash simply cared about their mission more than their own people.
Where was that mentioned?
(Recap: I and my "poor attention span" watched this show once, with a week between episodes and watching Gomer Pyle in between because I'm dum and don't deserve convoluted plots, BUT. . .)
Please humor me and refresh my memory:
1. Are these synths made of living tissue? I thought that was a big difference between them and Data. Looked on MA and couldn't find that so maybe I'm wrong.
2. If Soong made a Data (and a Lore, and a B4 -yish, that name, it's like something off Lost in Space) - anyway, why are they so dumb now, working in the shipyards? Why did Maddox leave the synth paradise planet to wind up in the old West bar?
3. How did the Tal or Zhat or whatever NOT just kill off the Soong line (so I would never have to see that smarmy annoying character again) and Maddox long ago? I mean if they're good enough to RUN starfleet security, they could bump off a couple scientists.
Thanks!
(edit: Help me like this show I really wanted to like.)
Please humor me and refresh my memory:
1. Are these synths made of living tissue? I thought that was a big difference between them and Data. Looked on MA and couldn't find that so maybe I'm wrong.
2. If Soong made a Data (and a Lore, and a B4 -yish, that name, it's like something off Lost in Space) - anyway, why are they so dumb now, working in the shipyards? Why did Maddox leave the synth paradise planet to wind up in the old West bar?
3. How did the Tal or Zhat or whatever NOT just kill off the Soong line (so I would never have to see that smarmy annoying character again) and Maddox long ago? I mean if they're good enough to RUN starfleet security, they could bump off a couple scientists.
Thanks!
(edit: Help me like this show I really wanted to like.)
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