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9X01 "The Magician's Apprentice" Grading/Discussion)

Grade "The Magician's Apprentice

  • Eyebrows!

    Votes: 56 45.9%
  • Souffle

    Votes: 46 37.7%
  • Lasagna

    Votes: 13 10.7%
  • I wish the magician can make this episode disappear

    Votes: 5 4.1%
  • Exterminate!

    Votes: 2 1.6%

  • Total voters
    122
  • Poll closed .
I wonder how did Davros just suddenly remembered that the Doctor met him in the past?

And in regard to his BF's apearence in Terror Firma, how the hell does that still happen? Or it doesn't anymore? Ugh.
 
The question wasn't about how they could be friends, she knows how that works. It was more about why would they call themselves friends, when all they do is try to kill each other?

Well, I am sure there are humans who consider each other friends even though they fight and argue a lot. Weird, dysfunctional relationships do happen and these are time lords we are talking about. They are not human.

If I am not mistaken, the Master always treated humans with contempt in classic who so it was very in character for Missy to talk down to Clara like she did. I just really noticed how many times Missy repeated herself to Clara about how Time Lords have more complicated relationships. Seemed like the episode kinda hit us over the head a bit with "clara = stupid little human".
 
Memories alter in the "present" after the past is changed.

Davros like a time lord has massive temporal inertia.

As the past changes, he will continue to remember multiple conflicting timelines no matter what the new/current historybooks insist is the past.

If the rules from this show are selfconsistent that is.
 
Ooooh Ooooh...

I noticed something very important. Did anyone else pick up on this?

Missy's gigantic ring. The same ring Donna had in series 4..
 
Well this pointless tangent about canon is as fascinating as all the others.

Not sure what I think of "The Magician's Apprentice." It had a lot of parts that I liked: the teaser, seeing the Shadow Proclamation (no Judoon dialogue, though), Kate Stewart, Missy (though I think less would be more with the sex/flirting references), the ever-awesome Clara, the Doctor's entrance on the tank with guitar, the reveal of the invisible planet, UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING. But I'm not sure what it added up to, so I'll be curious to see what Part Two brings us and evaluate then.

I will say that I am tired about Moffat stories about the Doctor's knowledge of his imminent demise. Is this the third? Or fourth?

I think your post highlights a lot of what I didn't like. There sure were a lot of cameos in the story who didn't progress the plot. Independent pieces that didn't gel into a plot. Then throw in the OTT, forced whackiness for both Missy and the Doctor.

There's a great story waiting to be told at the heart of this, but alas it was smothered with junk.

Mr Awe
 
I think your post highlights a lot of what I didn't like. There sure were a lot of cameos in the story who didn't progress the plot. Independent pieces that didn't gel into a plot. Then throw in the OTT, forced whackiness for both Missy and the Doctor.

There's a great story waiting to be told at the heart of this, but alas it was smothered with junk.

Which is why I'm slightly worried this will be more Season 6 Wacky Kitchen Sink Moffat instead of Season 8 Focused and Streamlined Moffat. I'll obviously watch it anyway, but still ...

:shifty:

.
 
I think your post highlights a lot of what I didn't like. There sure were a lot of cameos in the story who didn't progress the plot. Independent pieces that didn't gel into a plot. Then throw in the OTT, forced whackiness for both Missy and the Doctor.

There's a great story waiting to be told at the heart of this, but alas it was smothered with junk.

I've felt that Moffat has a tendency to write what I call "scenes in search of a plot." He does it with such verve and breathless velocity that we don't always notice that his scenes don't always add up to anything.
 
The Doctor not messing with time to save Danny was really weak at the end of last season and made even more so in that he's willing to kill Davros and massively alter the timeline by removing the Daleks from it.

Ah, but do the Doctor's actions change the timeline, or do his actions simply make events unfold as we've seen them in the series? This would be akin to how Day of the Doctor worked where the events stayed the same but we understood the larger context.

I think we've been given a hint of sorts that this has happened. Davros tossed the Doctor's sonic screwdriver at his feet. This inventive mind has had the advanced piece of technology from childhood to old age. Clearly, he's studied and disected it. Basically, the Daleks appear to have been created using technology and ideas gleaned from the sonic screwdriver. It would've given them a definite technological boost!

Mr Awe
 
- At times there is exposition for the purpose of bringing new viewers up to speed, I get that, but in-universe, there is no reason why Clara would be so clueless about the Daleks or Davros or why she would not understand how the Master and the Doctor could be childhood friends.

The question wasn't about how they could be friends, she knows how that works. It was more about why would they call themselves friends, when all they do is try to kill each other?

This was one of my criticisms of this episode. The Doctor should be morally repulsed by anyone who kills on such a large scale, both as part of her grand plans and random people who just happen to be around. But, to play up their relationship, Moffat has the Doctor overlook this.

On a moral basis, the Doctor would not consider Missy a friend but would have nothing to do with her and not send her his will! The Doctor should be visibly repulsed by her.

Mr Awe
 
It means BF will be releasing canonical material relating to all the Doctors, material that won't get ignored by the show any time soon.

Nope. It means Big Finish will be releasing stories that the TV show can and will ignore if they have the slightest desire. They won't let some random audio company dictate what they do with their own character.

Well, she is from Pease Pottage, West Sussex.

As per The Wrong Doctors, a story where the Trial Six and the Blue Coat Six meet. :cool:

Well, since there is no episode called The Wrong Doctors, and the 6th Doctor never wore a blue coat in canon, we still have no canon explanation for Mel.

Do whatever you want. The fact of the matter is, BF set the record straight, by maintaining Mel is his future, last companion before regenerating. They've not shown them how they met yet, but even so, their relationship is certainly expanded in a meaningful way that it matters.

If we go by canon, Six dropped future Mel off to future Six, and went on with his travels. But not before accidentally bumping into his blue-coat future self (which is before future Mel's DOctor's time, of course).

Big Finish gave their version of events, which is no more canon than a random fan's theories. Mel wasn't dropped off by anyone, and she only knows one 6th Doctor, since there is no blue coated sixth doctor.

Otherwise, you're right. Part of the fun with BF is that fill in the blanks in many of these cases, which is very satisfying.

Well, I'm sure they're fine for people's head canon, even though they aren't actually filling in blanks, since they're not canon.

Thats not even remotely similar a situation. These aren't professional enterprises that officially and by law use BBC's licence. They're fan-films, by their very definition. BF is a business venture, not a gathering of fanboys who have nothing to do in their free time.

Big Finish is just a group who managed to get the BBC to sell them the license to release some pointless, non canon, stories. Kind of like how there are many, many non canon comics and books, especially during the time the show was gone. Being an licensed product doesn't automaticallymake you canon.

You're just being stubborn for the sake of it. Even if you ignore BF, its certain they had several travels together before Six's regeneration.

They quite possibly had more adventures. But, until the show itself tells us, we have no way of knowing.

Did you actually listen to a single Sixth Doctor audio? How the heck did you get that idea? He's still opinionated and verbose as ever, he's just not an asshole. He progressed in his characterization, just like 23 did just that for him.

Of course I've never listened to a fake 6th Doctor story. I've listened to two stories. One involved a Doctor I'm not really attached to, so it couldn't really make me angry, and the other I only listened to because the idea of Nicholas Courtney narrating sounded cool. They turned out ok, but I listened to them specifically because I knew that, even if they were terrible, I could ignore them without getting more than annoyed. I'd never listen to a fake 6th story. Its guaranteed to make me angry, especially with the stupid coat and how he's portrayed. There is no BF story with the real 6th Doctor, and its all non canon anyway.

Jerks? Colin Baker dictated and agreed to Six's development. You're not giving him any credit at all. And the blue coat wasn't on for a long time - he's largely wearing that stupid rainbow coat of his nowadays anyway.

I'm pretty sure they just pay him, and as long as they don't do something he actively hates he'll go along with it. I doubt he's any more involved than that.

I mean, I guess selling out and ruining the 6th Doctor was the only way to make him more acceptable to the people who hated his era, but as a fan of the real version, its the big reason I've gone from just ignoring and not caring about BF to borderline hating them.
Thats just about the stupidest reason I've ever read.

So, instead of finding out whether these claims are right, you'll just pout and pout? Man, you're no fun.

So, I can either make myself very angry by listening to the destruction of my favorite Doctor, or I can avoid wasting my time and completely losing my temper. Hm, I wonder what I should do...

I guess you should be angry, because they are canon. Colin Baker, who isn't shy from admitting he still likes the majority of his TV stories, is very proud of his work with BF, and the development that Old Sixie had received.

Colin Baker doesn't get to decide what is canon, either. I'm glad he's happy and getting paying work, and as a consequence kind of giving the middle finger to the BBC for firing him from the role in the first place. But, nothing he's done counts as canon, regardless of whether he likes it or not.

As far as the Sixth Doctor goes, Big Finish really did work on him the way Baker wanted to have been, and given him stories that are worthy of his time and effort. And I'm not kidding - you are missing out. Just pick up the Last Adventure set, and you won't regret it.

I already have Colin Baker's last adventure as The Doctor. Its called The Ultimate Foe, and I got it in the Trial of a Timelord DVD box set. I haven't missed everything, I've seen every canon Sixth Doctor story already.

From an in-universe perspective, those adventures had already occured, the audience experienced them, and know perfectly well to what that Doctor is referring to. You're just stubborn because you hate BF for the stupidest reason possible.

The 8th Doctor has had one adventure, with Grace Holloway on Earth in 1999, and a final death scene on Karn. He has had no other canon adventures or companions. All we know is that he knew people with some BF names, and nothing else.


Because it really is so simple: Moffat meant to reference those very characters from Big Finish, and did just that. Thus, for NuWho, at least the adventures of the Eighth Doctor as per BF occurred for sure.

Denial is not a river in Egypt, you know.

You're the one in a huge amount of denial. Making a reference to BF doesn't make it canon, it makes the line an easter egg for the few BF fans watching.
 
You're the one in a huge amount of denial. Making a reference to BF doesn't make it canon, it makes the line an easter egg for the few BF fans watching.

Good God, he really isn't. I hope you're wearing your armbands in that river in Egypt?
 
He does not have to kill Davros, just transplant him to another planet in a another time where he may grow up normal. He could just be using the gun to shoot the hand mines. The show still need Daleks so they cant just erase them, but I wonder if somehow the Doctors action make them less of threat, then the Timelords can return with out having to re-ignite the Time war.
 
I wonder how did Davros just suddenly remembered that the Doctor met him in the past?

Here's how I took it to happen. As a boy, all Davros knew was that he encountered some guy. We're still not sure what the Doctor did.

At any rate, the Doctor had Capaldi's face and if there was no name associated with it, Davros wouldn't link this stranger to the Doctor. At least not until the Doctor regenerated into Capaldi. At that point, one of Davros' associates may have identified him. This allowed Davros to rememberthe incident, or at least correctly associate it with the proper identity.

Maybe it's something else entirely, but that's how I interpreted it given what we've seen so far.

Mr Awe
 
He does not have to kill Davros, just transplant him to another planet in a another time where he may grow up normal. He could just be using the gun to shoot the hand mines. The show still need Daleks so they cant just erase them, but I wonder if somehow the Doctors action make them less of threat, then the Timelords can return with out having to re-ignite the Time war.

I don't even think he is going to shot the hand mines, i think that Dalek weapon will end up being some sort of transmat that he will use to transport the young Davor's to the same place Missy and Coleman went to when they were shot by the daleks.
 
I wonder how did Davros just suddenly remembered that the Doctor met him in the past?

And in regard to his BF's apearence in Terror Firma, how the hell does that still happen? Or it doesn't anymore? Ugh.

Well, there might be a time differential at play here.
Usually Davros stays in sync with the Doctor similar to the Master.
That the newest version of the Doctor ran into the youngest version of Davros he ever met was an accident that most likely was not supposed to happen.
It is possible, that as soon as they go their seperate ways again, the time differential erases the his memories of teh encounter.
He is not able to retain it, up until the point where he catches up to the Doctor's time line when it all suddenly comes back to him.
Similar to what happened in Time Crash and The Day of the Doctor.
 
I wonder how did Davros just suddenly remembered that the Doctor met him in the past?

Here's how I took it to happen. As a boy, all Davros knew was that he encountered some guy. We're still not sure what the Doctor did.

At any rate, the Doctor had Capaldi's face and if there was no name associated with it, Davros wouldn't link this stranger to the Doctor. At least not until the Doctor regenerated into Capaldi. At that point, one of Davros' associates may have identified him. This allowed Davros to rememberthe incident, or at least correctly associate it with the proper identity.

Maybe it's something else entirely, but that's how I interpreted it given what we've seen so far.

Mr Awe

Davros could see the TARDIS through the smoke/fog and heard it de-materialize.

At some later point Davros would have realized what that was all about.
 
Thought it was awful.

After reading a few of the bread crumbs that have dropped online for the past few months I went in with rather low expectations and it was even worse then I was expecting it to be. I even tried to give it a second chance but on the second viewing I kept hitting fast forward because it was so uninteresting.

The cold open sets up a rather lame and uninteresting fanfic/Big Finish style story. The next 25 minutes is just random noise with poor attempts at humor, GNDN cameos, and "OOOHHHHH WAKCY DOCTOR AND MISSY!!!!!!!!". In the last 15 minutes it sputters around a bit and then eventually starts to tell the story. A story which looks to essentially be Davros pissed at the Doctor because "he wefted him and dat hurt his wittle feewings".
 
I wonder how did Davros just suddenly remembered that the Doctor met him in the past?

Here's how I took it to happen. As a boy, all Davros knew was that he encountered some guy. We're still not sure what the Doctor did.

At any rate, the Doctor had Capaldi's face and if there was no name associated with it, Davros wouldn't link this stranger to the Doctor. At least not until the Doctor regenerated into Capaldi. At that point, one of Davros' associates may have identified him. This allowed Davros to rememberthe incident, or at least correctly associate it with the proper identity.

Maybe it's something else entirely, but that's how I interpreted it given what we've seen so far.

Mr Awe

Davros could see the TARDIS through the smoke/fog and heard it de-materialize.

At some later point Davros would have realized what that was all about.

I don't think we know for sure that he saw it. Probably didn't hear it because they went out of their way to make it clear they could only hear each other with the sonic whatever.

Maybe it's some time thing like someone else mentioned above due to meeting out of order. But, a simpler explanation would simply be that he just never associated that face with the Doctor until then.

Mr Awe
 
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