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9X01 "The Magician's Apprentice" Grading/Discussion)

Grade "The Magician's Apprentice

  • Eyebrows!

    Votes: 56 45.9%
  • Souffle

    Votes: 46 37.7%
  • Lasagna

    Votes: 13 10.7%
  • I wish the magician can make this episode disappear

    Votes: 5 4.1%
  • Exterminate!

    Votes: 2 1.6%

  • Total voters
    122
  • Poll closed .
Karn is in the same system as Gallifrey. I do not remember the Sisterhood of Karn being given an origin story in the filmed episodes. In "The Brain of Morbius", Ohica said,

Alone among all the races in our galaxy, the Time Lords are our equals in mind power.

This sentence might imply the members of the Sisterhood of Karn belong to a species that is not the Time Lords. Nourished by the Elixir of Life, the women are long-lived.

Today, I watched an earlier episode of NuWho - "Blink". This is a superior episode to "The Magician's Apprentice". It was top-notch in all the elements of a story - the characters, the story, the setting, the conflict, and the resolution. An aspect of this episode that worked especially was that the continuity flavored the story. "The Magician's Apprentice" happen to be oversaturated with flavor.
 
I guess after Ace finally left him after all the mental torture, he probably got lonely. She's just lucky he didn't kill her, which would have been my guess about how their relationship ended if an episode of the SJ Adventures hadn't confirmed Ace being alive and well.

Actually the plan for Ace was that she would leave the Doctor in the 27th season to become a Time Lady. Strange thogh how you keep talking about you think Ace was torturedby the Doctor, it was the ninth Doctor who made Amy get medical help for her imaginary friend.

Well, since the 9th Doctor never met amy, I don't know what your last line even means :cardie: Besides that, the "time lady" thing was, from what I remember, from Mr. stupid Looms himself, Andrew Cartmel. NuWho did a great job of putting the Cartmel Master plan into to the ground, completely dead.

So, yeah, the "ace as a time lady" (which is impossible anyway, you can't be a time lord according to known canon unless you're galifrean or concieved on a TARDIS flying in the time vortex) is, luckily, no more real than the looms. Even if it had happened, he probably just would have stuck some nitro nine in her back pack, secretly activated the timer as she left the TARDIS and arrived on Galifrey, and flown away leaving her to blow up some timelords he was angry at :lol:
 
Am I forgetting anything else, or is there just Trenzalore and this?

Trenzalore again, in "The Time of the Doctor," yeah?
Actually, that was the time that I was counting. When he went the first time... he knew that as where he would die (or should have died), but I didn't think he was expecting it to be on that trip...

And I was counting all of Season 7 as a unit (but especially his behavior in "Closing Time"/"Wedding of River Song," before he concocts the out with the Tesselecta.
I didn't remember how early he came up with that out. If it really was that late, then yeah, that does count.
 
I forgot that Karn was in the same system as Gallifrey. That makes it even more ridiculous that it's still around.
 
OK some questions that bug me..

1. Was the TARDIS actually destroyed? Did anyone notice they showed a white light filling the console room?

2. Does this instance of Davros remember events from Journey's End? I wonder since the Universe did get a reboot so everything in essence died and was resurrected if the reboot was literal? Or do events in Journey's End take place in another time?

3. Was the whole extermination fake? Much like the fake spaceship actually being a building on Skaro? Something smells.
 
So, they basically took the premise of a Big Finish audio, and made it canon, since the original version wasn't canon. I'm not saying Big Finish hasn't done good or even great stories, just that they don't count as canon.
If they wanted to make it canon the way you say they should have, they wouldn't have done an alternate Earth scenario. They did that, instead, in order to preserve the original story, which is canon, whether you like idea that the BF stuff is canon or not.

Inspiring a story, like I say above, actually hurts the "BF is canon" argument. They can inspire episodes of the show, but they aren't part of the show. I could see that.
They inspire a story, in the same way that David FIsher's draft of City of Death inspired Douglas Adams' version.

You're using double standards in a clear-cut situation.

That's normal tie-in oversight, it doesn't make the stories canon. The BBC just doesn't want BF to step on the toes of the TV show, or release a story it doesn't think should be associated with the show.

No, it means it will be releasing non canon tie in stories until 2020.
It means BF will be releasing canonical material relating to all the Doctors, material that won't get ignored by the show any time soon.

We don't know where Mel is from, we never see how she met the Doctor.
Well, she is from Pease Pottage, West Sussex.

As per The Wrong Doctors, a story where the Trial Six and the Blue Coat Six meet. :cool:

We don't know how long they were traveling before Terror of the Vervoids. I guess, thinking back, they did say that Terror of the Vervoids took place in the Doctor's future. So, I guess I have to rearrange my timeline
Do whatever you want. The fact of the matter is, BF set the record straight, by maintaining Mel is his future, last companion before regenerating. They've not shown them how they met yet, but even so, their relationship is certainly expanded in a meaningful way that it matters.
The Ultimate Foe to Terror of the Vervoids (the events shown in the courtroom obviously, not the courtroom scenes themselves) to Time and the Rani. We have no idea how Mel met The Doctor, and it can't fit anywhere. So, the way I figure it, The Doctor must not have gone directly from the events shown in Mindwarp to the courtroom. He must have had an adventure where he met Mel in between, otherwise nothing makes sense, even though it was clearly supposed to be him going directly from Mindwarp to the courtroom. Then, when he was brought to the courtroom, he forgot the events of both Mindwarp and meeting Mel (we know he forgot Mindwarp), meaning that from his perspective, she was from his "future", even if he'd already met her and just couldn't remember. The writers couldn't fix the meeting Mel thing since Colin was fired before we saw him meeting mel, so the way I've laid out events is the only way I can see it happening, if we just go by on screen, canon sources.
If we go by canon, Six dropped future Mel off to future Six, and went on with his travels. But not before accidentally bumping into his blue-coat future self (which is before future Mel's DOctor's time, of course).

Otherwise, you're right. Part of the fun with BF is that fill in the blanks in many of these cases, which is very satisfying.

I can point to, for example, several Trek fan films that use the original actors, and that doesn't make them canon with anything.
Thats not even remotely similar a situation. These aren't professional enterprises that officially and by law use BBC's licence. They're fan-films, by their very definition. BF is a business venture, not a gathering of fanboys who have nothing to do in their free time.

No, they didn't. They had almost certainly one, I'll give you that, but I can't see him having more than one, and there is no canon story to fit in there.
You're just being stubborn for the sake of it. Even if you ignore BF, its certain they had several travels together before Six's regeneration.

Apparently all he does is get a stupid blue coat and become the 5th Doctor.
Did you actually listen to a single Sixth Doctor audio? How the heck did you get that idea? He's still opinionated and verbose as ever, he's just not an asshole. He progressed in his characterization, just like 23 did just that for him.

He's my favorite Doctor because of the real, in canon stories he was in. Toning him down for the people who were upset that he wasn't Peter Davidson, and that refused to look past his coat, just makes BF jerks.
Jerks? Colin Baker dictated and agreed to Six's development. You're not giving him any credit at all. And the blue coat wasn't on for a long time - he's largely wearing that stupid rainbow coat of his nowadays anyway.

And its Peter Davison, thank you very much.

I mean, I guess selling out and ruining the 6th Doctor was the only way to make him more acceptable to the people who hated his era, but as a fan of the real version, its the big reason I've gone from just ignoring and not caring about BF to borderline hating them.
Thats just about the stupidest reason I've ever read.

So, instead of finding out whether these claims are right, you'll just pout and pout? Man, you're no fun.

The real sixth doctor is an irritable timelord in a colorful coat who got two seasons worth of adventures. Big Finish's 6th-in-name-only is basically giving a big middle finger to people who like the real 6th Doctor, and I'd probably be more angry if the stories were remotely canon, which they aren't. The original, televised 6th Doctor still the only canon version.
I guess you should be angry, because they are canon. Colin Baker, who isn't shy from admitting he still likes the majority of his TV stories, is very proud of his work with BF, and the development that Old Sixie had received.

As far as the Sixth Doctor goes, Big Finish really did work on him the way Baker wanted to have been, and given him stories that are worthy of his time and effort. And I'm not kidding - you are missing out. Just pick up the Last Adventure set, and you won't regret it.

I guess after Ace finally left him after all the mental torture, he probably got lonely. She's just lucky he didn't kill her, which would have been my guess about how their relationship ended if an episode of the SJ Adventures hadn't confirmed Ace being alive and well.
BF also hadn't explored Ace's fate so far. Looking forward to that, when it comes.

Actually the plan for Ace was that she would leave the Doctor in the 27th season to become a Time Lady. Strange thogh how you keep talking about you think Ace was torturedby the Doctor, it was the ninth Doctor who made Amy get medical help for her imaginary friend.
Actually, the Eleventh Doctor. :)

Oh, it was obviously Moffat's intent to reference BF. But, until we see them on screen, all we know from an in universe perspective is that the 8th Doctor knew some people who coincidentally had the same names of a few BF characters.
From an in-universe perspective, those adventures had already occured, the audience experienced them, and know perfectly well to what that Doctor is referring to. You're just stubborn because you hate BF for the stupidest reason possible.

I don't even know what this means. There is no reason for the names Charley and C'rizz to have any connection outside of Big Finish, or for C'rizz's name to be unique, so it means nothing when it comes to canon. I already said Moffat obviously took the names from BF, we just have no way of knowing, in canon, who the names are attached to and what relationships they had with The Doctor.
Whatever. Once again, employing double standards to satisfy your own hyperbole arguments, which aren't convincing to the least.

Because it really is so simple: Moffat meant to reference those very characters from Big Finish, and did just that. Thus, for NuWho, at least the adventures of the Eighth Doctor as per BF occurred for sure.

Denial is not a river in Egypt, you know.
 
Regardless their actual position within Gallifreyan society or however far removed from Gallifrey they are, the fact there is someone related to Gallifrey still out there is pretty huge, considering we've been told the Doctor and the TARDIS were all that survived the Time War from Gallifrey. Or more accurately, didn't get sucked into a pocket universe. Kind of makes you wonder how much time the Doctor has spent with the Sisterhood since the Time War ended.
Don't get me wrong - I agree its a big deal. But I'm not gonna downgrade this episode for it, is all I'm saying.
 
The Doctor not messing with time to save Danny was really weak at the end of last season and made even more so in that he's willing to kill Davros and massively alter the timeline by removing the Daleks from it.

Anyway, all in all I enjoyed the episode and am glad I got back into the show last season when the changed Doctors after losing interest during Tennet and having no interest the Smith's reign.
 
Well I and the wife loved it.

As a purely academic exercise I wonder how low the ratings would have to get before the Beeb pulled the plug? I suspect there'd be regeneration first to revive things (not that I think they need reviving but from the BBC's perspective.

I suspect production would move to Worldwide and BBC 1 would be one of the markets to which the program was sold before the the plug was pulled altogether, sort of the way Ripper Street was handled.

If BBCStudio gets created, I suspect that it will be shunted off to there.
 
[
I've never understood the "music is too loud" complaint, but it makes even less sense these days. Ever since Moffat took over the music is significantly less bombastic than it was back in RTD's day.

I have to say there were times during the RTD era that I struggled to hear the dialogue, I've found things a lot better since Moffat turned the music down.

As a purely academic exercise I wonder how low the ratings would have to get before the Beeb pulled the plug? I suspect there'd be regeneration first to revive things (not that I think they need reviving but from the BBC's perspective.

I suspect production would move to Worldwide and BBC 1 would be one of the markets to which the program was sold before the the plug was pulled altogether, sort of the way Ripper Street was handled.

I think we're (hopefully) some way off something like that happening anyway, unless the show really started haemorrhaging viewers.
 
Revenue streams....

1. First run advertising in Britain/internationally.

2. Rerun/Syndication in Britain/internationally.

3. Streaming resale distribution in Britain/Internationally.

4. Physical media sales in Britain/Internationally.

5. Ancillary Merchandising in Britain/internationally.

(Internationally = 10s of dozens of clearly defined distinct regional areas.)

Just because the BEEB made less money in a first few hours than they thought they would, and they didn't, it doesn't mean that we're calling a code brown. Advertising blocks were sold months/weeks ago. It's the next ad block (and all future ad blocks) that the BBC tries to sell (weeks into the future?) that will be adjusted for a downturn in viewers. And even then it's still a quesiton of demographics. Even if they lost a 5th of their audience, which they did, if Who still doubled their professional upper middle class Males aged 21 to 50, that would give the sponsers some serious wood.

(But that's highly unlikely.)
 
The Doctor not messing with time to save Danny was really weak at the end of last season and made even more so in that he's willing to kill Davros and massively alter the timeline by removing the Daleks from it.

Of course, if the Daleks themselves are a fixed point in time, or unalterable, it won't matter what the Doctor does or tries to do to Davros.

Maybe those hands absorb people's memories and knowledge and whatever caused Davros to create the Daleks happens anyway.

I bet those things have great hand-eye coordination ;)
 
The Doctor not messing with time to save Danny was really weak at the end of last season and made even more so in that he's willing to kill Davros and massively alter the timeline by removing the Daleks from it.

Of course, if the Daleks themselves are a fixed point in time, or unalterable, it won't matter what the Doctor does or tries to do to Davros.

Maybe those hands absorb people's memories and knowledge and whatever caused Davros to create the Daleks happens anyway.

I bet those things have great hand-eye coordination ;)


The hands remind me a lot of the Sybaline Sisterhood as they had eyes on their hands. Painted I think.
 
The Doctor not messing with time to save Danny was really weak at the end of last season and made even more so in that he's willing to kill Davros and massively alter the timeline by removing the Daleks from it.

Of course, if the Daleks themselves are a fixed point in time, or unalterable, it won't matter what the Doctor does or tries to do to Davros.

Maybe those hands absorb people's memories and knowledge and whatever caused Davros to create the Daleks happens anyway.

I bet those things have great hand-eye coordination ;)


The hands remind me a lot of the Sybaline Sisterhood as they had eyes on their hands. Painted I think.

I wonder if Moffat will force a connection in there.
 
Things I really liked:
- The doctor's intro on the tank with the guitar. Guitars are cool as the 11th might say! :D
- Missy's talk with Clara with UNIT surrounding them. Missy continues to be amazing as the master, alternating constantly between charming and evil.
- But the best scene by far for me was the reveal of Skaro. A great WTF moment. And the conversation between the Doctor and Davros in his lab was perfect, harkening back to Genesis of the Daleks.
- Also loved Missy's speech to the Daleks. So perfectly the Master. Of course, the Master would try to become the leader of the Daleks and promise to lead them on a conquest of the universe! :D

Other comments:
- At times there is exposition for the purpose of bringing new viewers up to speed, I get that, but in-universe, there is no reason why Clara would be so clueless about the Daleks or Davros or why she would not understand how the Master and the Doctor could be childhood friends.
- The Doctor acting like this is his final day is meant to create drama for the viewer but in-universe there is no reason why it should bother the Doctor. He is an experienced time traveler and knows all the tricks of the trade by now. In-universe, he should not have been scared to see Davros but rather should have just set a trap of his own and went to see him right away.
- Also I fully expect that the Doctor will save young Davros and try to train him to be good (hence the title "the magician's apprentice". Of course, it will fail and the Daleks will still be created. At the last minute, the Doctor will figure out a way to erase Davros' mind so that he will never know to call the Doctor in his final moment.
 
Why does Missy offer the Daleks time travel when they could already time travel?

She was just vamping for all she was worth, offering them anything she could think of that would get them to not kill her, and that would give her time to get up to that console and put her plan into play. I very much doubt there was any serious offer in there - the Master has no more love of the Daleks than the Doctor does.


Was the TARDIS actually destroyed? Did anyone notice they showed a white light filling the console room?
This is Doctor Who. Do you really think they would actually destroy the Tardis, proper for realsies? Even if they did destroy it in this episode, they would obviously find a way to undo it. Plus, how does the Doctor get back to early Skaro again without it? (We never saw him have a vortex manipulator.)


2. Does this instance of Davros remember events from Journey's End?

He definitely does, because one of the video clips he played was from Ten's confrontation with him in that episode.


- At times there is exposition for the purpose of bringing new viewers up to speed, I get that, but in-universe, there is no reason why Clara would be so clueless about the Daleks or Davros or why she would not understand how the Master and the Doctor could be childhood friends.

The question wasn't about how they could be friends, she knows how that works. It was more about why would they call themselves friends, when all they do is try to kill each other?

.
 
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