9X01 "The Magician's Apprentice" Grading/Discussion)

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I hold Season 23, The Trial of a Timelord, and 24 as the two weakest seasons in Classic Who.

Season 23 isn't so bad. The 15th season, which had Anthony Head as Story Editor, was far worse. Aside form Horror of Fang Rock, which was a Holmes holdover, not one story works well. Underworld is the single worst story of the 70's, bar none.

Seasons 22, 25, and 26 (the Baker/McCoy years), along with Season 15, had good stories.

Well, sure, but 22 is objectively the worst season of the 80's. It had one good story (Vengeance on Varos), one entertaining (The Two Doctors), and the rest were rubbish. Its the season that makes my blood boil, because JNT and Saward had no idea what the hell they were doing at this point. They were creatively bankrupt after Davison left.

During Series 8, I did not feel myself as emotionally invested in the Doctor or Clara. In series past, I have felt emotionally invested in the Doctor and his companions. There were episodes where I was crying at the ending. I want to feel, I need to care, for these characters. Otherwise, why am I watching this franchise? I am hoping that at least one episode from Series 9 makes me feel connected to the Doctor or Clara on an emotional level. So far, for me, the series has had an inauspicious beginning.

So you didn't even like Flatline, or Mummy on the Orient Express? I certainly even enjoyed Dark Water (although Death in Heaven was terrible).

 

[kirk55555]

Bash them? I love the Sixth Doctor. But his TV stories were, by and large, junk.

Hell, I'm listening to a Sixth Doctor audio as I type this! His BF outfit is my avatar at the time being! He's a great Doctor when he has the scripts that examplify his strengths. Timelash is far, far, far from Colin's better stories. Its insultingly terrible. I suggest you buy his Last Adventure box set and see how good he could be.

And I forgot your crazy views about the Seventh Doctor. But for whats worth, I can't really stand Anthony Ainley. Second worst Master of OldWho, after Eric Roberts.

Anyway, back on topic: I prefer even the worst episode of series 8 to the drivel you just mentioned. Sorry, but a Doctor playing the spoons is not my idea of any sort of entertainment.

Timelash is easily the worst 6th Doctor story, I have never and will never deny that. Its still better than the three episodes of series 8 I listed. Also, the TV episodes are the Sixth Doctor, not the completely non canon Big Finish and its stupid costume change (which apparently the Doctor didn't even like in the BF continuity, since he was wearing his real costume when he regenerated I wonder how Big Finish got around that).

When it comes to the Sixth Doctor, he had two Seasons or generally ok to good stories with really only one outright atrocious story (Timelash) and one or two great stories (Attack of the Cybermen and The two doctors). I suggest you watch (or rewatch) those last two stories I mentioned and see how good The 6th Doctor could be, not the non canon audio adventures that are basically fan fiction that somehow got the actors back.

Anthony Ainley is easily the best Master in my opinion, with Delgado at a close second, followed by Missy followed by burnt corpse followed by Simms and, since I guess I have to list him, Roberts at the very end. Ainley's Master was just a great character, and you could tell Ainley loved every minute of it.

Also, I'll take a Doctor playing spoons over a doctor literally torturing his companion for no real reason any day of the week. Honestly, if the Doctor Who movie had opened with Ace stabbing the Doctor to escape, and that's why he regenerated into McGann, it would have seemed like a natural progression of their relationship

Well, sure, but 22 is objectively the worst season of the 80's. It had one good story (Vengeance on Varos), one entertaining (The Two Doctors), and the rest were rubbish. Its the season that makes my blood boil, because JNT and Saward had no idea what the hell they were doing at this point. They were creatively bankrupt after Davison left.

You keep saying "objectively". I don't think that word means what you think it means. I'd say Season 24 or 26 were the worst seasons of the 80s. Colin Baker's first season had the awesome Attack of the Cybermen and The two Doctors, the good Vengeance on Varos and The Mark of the Rani, and the bad Timelash and Revelation of the Daleks. So, four good to great stories to two bad stories. Its my opinion, and its no more "objective" than yours.

 

[Redfern]

Someone wondered how the Doctor transported a tank to the Middle Ages. He just materialized the TARDIS around the weapon depositing it in one of the bigger rooms. Then "vorp" to the era where kings were the people not covered in sh*t; land, demat the box to release the tank and then park the TARDIS before making the grand entrance.

The guitar riff? Yeah, indulgent, but was likely a "gift" from Moffat to Capaldi. In his younger days, Peter could really "shred" and was even in a band (or at least played) with Craig Fergusan before he became a noted late night host. Though I have no proof of this, I can imagine Moffat asking Capaldi if there might be something "special" he'd like to do in the series and Peter responding that he'd like to play the guitar.

Was Davros' skull larger? Hmm, hard to tell, it might have been the lighting. They used stark white spotlights in "The Stolen Earth" that seemed to wash out some the color which may have had an effect. Some behind the scenes footage detailing the creation of the makeup for the earlier Tennant story revealed a design with a proportional "normal" cranium. But I hope the desgn was modified for this story. Why? Well, while they have many differences, in other details, both the John Friedlander mask Michael Wisher wore and the concept Terry Molloy sported had expanded skulls. When conceived, Friedlander admitted he paid a bit of homage to a villainous being from the "Dan Dare" comics called the "Mekon", a green skinned humanoid with a supersized brain and an otherwise atrophied body riding upon a levitating conveyance. While I loved the merging of design elements from both masks for the makeup Julian Bleach wore, I thought they missed the mark with the cranium, not making it large enough. Of course, that begs the question, seeing Davros as a seemingly "normal" looking child, what made his skull swell?

Finally...hand mines?! While the concept itself is very Whovian and suitably creepy, I just don't see it associated with Skaro. It just seems an idea better suited for a different story. And being silly for a moment, making a fist for these guys has got to be seriously painful, their nails digging into their eyes as they curl their fingers! Ouch! Mogg forgive they try punching something with their digits clenched!

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

While the "axe fight" scene could have benefited from some repacing, my biggest disappointment was Capaldi not having Craig Ferguson backing him on drums.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Also, the TV episodes are the Sixth Doctor, not the completely non canon Big Finish

The absolutely canonical BF. NuWho has gone out of its way to make that crystal clear - complete with Moffat imploring people to go buy the Eighth Doctor's range in 2013, after Night of the Doctor.

and its stupid costume change (which apparently the Doctor didn't even like in the BF continuity, since he was wearing his real costume when he regenerated I wonder how Big Finish got around that).

Nicholas Briggs and David Richardson, the current showrunners of BF, are traditionalists. Also, Mel from an aborted future timeline told the blue-coated Sixth Doctor that she prefered him with his Trial coat. A while after tht (halfway through the Flip run) he changed back to his old coat.

But there's nothing stupid about it. The blue coat suits him wonderfully, and is easily the best of his costumes.

When it comes to the Sixth Doctor, he had two Seasons or generally ok to good stories with really only one outright atrocious story (Timelash) and one or two great stories (Attack of the Cybermen and The two doctors). I suggest you watch (or rewatch) those last two stories I mentioned and see how good The 6th Doctor could be, not the non canon audio adventures that are basically fan fiction that somehow got the actors back.

Dude, I just suggested The Two Doctors. You don't think I recognize its decent? But the fact, the rest of his run (with the exception of Vengeance, Attack and Two Doctors) is awful.

Anthony Ainley is easily the best Master in my opinion, with Delgado at a close second, followed by Missy followed by burnt corpse followed by Simms and, since I guess I have to list him, Roberts at the very end. Ainley's Master was just a great character, and you could tell Ainley loved every minute of it.

Hammy as all hell. I count three decent stories with him, and nothing else.

Though I've not yet seen Survival, I grant you.

Also, I'll take a Doctor playing spoons over a doctor literally torturing his companion for no real reason any day of the week. Honestly, if the Doctor Who movie had opened with Ace stabbing the Doctor to escape, and that's why he regenerated into McGann, it would have seemed like a natural progression of their relationship

Wrong on both counts. The Doctor wasn't torturing Clara, he leaving her to make a decision. The Doctor knew it would've been easy for him to make a decision on the behalf of humanity, but as this was a fixed point in time, it was not his place to do so. Its called characterization.

And the Seventh Doctor's at his best in season 25. Season 24 he's just a pale imiation of the Second Doctor, but without the charm of Patrick Troughton.

You keep saying "objectively". I don't think that word means what you think it means.

It means dissassociated from personal feelings of any kind. No wonder you don't know what it means.

I'd say Season 24 or 26 were the worst seasons of the 80s. Colin Baker's first season had the awesome Attack of the Cybermen and The two Doctors, the good Vengeance on Varos and The Mark of the Rani, and the bad Timelash and Revelation of the Daleks. So, four good to great stories to two bad stories. Its my opinion, and its no more "objective" than yours.

Not really. Vengeance is the only story that actually is any good. Attack is one of the weaker Cybermen stories, and The Two Doctors isn't a patch for Holmes' best efforts. I prefer The Mysterious Planet to this, honestly - and it pains me, because it has Troughton's final Second Doctor performance, but too bad I guess.

22 also features the worst characterization for the Sixth Doctor yet, as an arrogant, smug, mean little man, whose superiority is more important than the well being of those around him. In Vengeance it made sense, and in Two Doctors he's more than fine, but in the rest? Really.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

What don't you understand about it. The Music is too loud, thus taking me out of the story, thus affecting my enjoyment of the episode. Maybe it's the way BBC America has their audio, but this has been an issue ever since I started watching back in 2005 and for this being Season 9, it's going to affect how I enjoy this season. In fact, the first thing I ask when I wonder if I liked the episode was "Was the music too loud". If yes, it's not excellent. If no, than it could be excellent.

My point is that I've been watching from the beginning and have never had the music drown out the audio. Sure I might miss a word on occasion due to an unfamiliar accent, or someone speaking fast, but that's it.
So it makes me wonder if the mix sounds different through TV speaker than it does computer speakers or headphones.

No doubt in my mind some 5.1 mixes are way too heavy on the "background" music. I have a ton of movies that take a lot of audio adjustment to watch.

Then, movie & TV DVD's & BD's I've ripped for watching on computer are usually a lot better because I reduce to stereo. I can't explain how it works, it just does.

 

[Mr Awe]

Average. Lot's of potential here but it ended up being mostly fluff. The idea at the core of the story is fascinating. What would the Doctor do? Save Davros as an innocent child, or let him survive? What's the right thing to do in that situation?

What we got was a tease for that. But, more of the story was fluff about the antics of Missy getting Clara's attention. After that we got the "hilarity" of her behavior, and the Doctor's behavior. It was all too forced compared to say Tom Baker's and Matt Smith's more natural quirkiness. And, the supposed "hilarity" detracted from the real interesting issue.

I also don't buy that the Doctor and Master/Missy are friends. While that is what Missy says, the Doctor doesn't refute it. He also does not seem sufficiently repulsed by Missy who kills random people. He should have no reason to send his will to her.

I also was unsure about when in time on Skaro this was supposed to be taking place. Missy offered the Daleks time travel as if they didn't have it yet, which suggests early in their history. But, the mix of classic and new series Daleks muddies that issue.

Perhaps the next part will be truly epic and fully use the intriguing idea that is behind the story. But, so far, it's been a lot of fluff, "hilarious" antics, but not much substance.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Just one question; what relevance does the title have to the story?

Perhaps Moffat had the title first and expected that the title would fit the story when it was finished. I think every writer runs into this at some point -- they have a title they fall in love with, the story that goes with it doesn't fit the title, and then the writer has to decide whether to come up with a new title or keep it even though it doesn't fit anymore.

I thought the answer is clear that Davros is the Doctor's (Magician's) apprentice. Clearly, Davros, from the mysterious figure who promised to help and asking about which world he was on, learned to distrust outsiders and never to be in position of weakness to need such help. That mindset prompted him to put all of his people in tanks!

Mr Awe

 

[kirk55555]

Also, the TV episodes are the Sixth Doctor, not the completely non canon Big Finish

The absolutely canonical BF. NuWho has gone out of its way to make that crystal clear - complete with Moffat imploring people to go buy the Eighth Doctor's range in 2013, after Night of the Doctor.

Well, Moffat can say what he wants. He's the current showrunner, but he'll be gone eventually. They can go against Big Finish whenever they want, it just doesn't really come up because they don't cover the same territory very often. I'm sure they'd treat BF like the fanfiction it is if they had the slightest desire to do something that happened to contradict Big Finish.

But there's nothing stupid about it. The blue coat suits him wonderfully, and is easily the best of his costumes.

That's just personal opinion, so I won't really argue too much. I love his real coat, but if you like the non canon coat better, that's fine. I think its stupid and only exists because some people just can't accept reality.

Dude, I just suggested The Two Doctors. You don't think I recognize its decent? But the fact, the rest of his run (with the exception of Vengeance, Attack and Two Doctors) is awful.

Again, that's your opinion. I love Attack of the Cybermen, its one of the strongest Cybermen stories I've ever seen (and I've seen all of NuWho's stories, Tomb of the Cybermen, the Tom Baker, Colin Baker and McCoy Cybermen stories, and Earthshock) and I find Vengeance on varos to be fine, but a bit of a step down from AotCM and The Two Doctors. The Mark of the Rani is also very fun, although not quite great admittedly.

Hammy as all hell. I count three decent stories with him, and nothing else.

Though I've not yet seen Survival, I grant you.

To me, Ainley is The Master. When I think of the character, I think of Ainley. Delgado was also quite good, but no one will match Ainley to me.

Wrong on both counts. The Doctor wasn't torturing Clara, he leaving her to make a decision. The Doctor knew it would've been easy for him to make a decision on the behalf of humanity, but as this was a fixed point in time, it was not his place to do so. Its called characterization.

Who said he was torturing Clara? Tahat said, I wouldn't be super upset if he (mentally) tortured her like he did Ace. Clara is a psychopath would tried to murder him, because she is a selfish ass. no other companion got so close to murdering him, and no other companion was such a baby about death. Even Rose only broke time not knowing the actual effects of her actions, she didn't actively try to murder The Doctor to bring back her Dad.

And the Seventh Doctor's at his best in season 25. Season 24 he's just a pale imiation of the Second Doctor, but without the charm of Patrick Troughton.[/.quote]

Being a pale imitation of the 2nd Doctor is still better than acting like Delgado's Master if he was about 10 times more psychotic.

You keep saying "objectively". I don't think that word means what you think it means.

It means dissassociated from personal feelings of any kind. No wonder you don't know what it means.

Well, since you're the one who keeps declaring things "objectively" bad, while obviously having a lot of hatred for the same stuff, my questioning of your word comprehension stands.

Not really. Vengeance is the only story that actually is any good. Attack is one of the weaker Cybermen stories, and The Two Doctors isn't a patch for Holmes' best efforts. I prefer The Mysterious Planet to this, honestly - and it pains me, because it has Troughton's final Second Doctor performance, but too bad I guess.

The Two Doctors is my favorite Robert Holmes serial, outside of possibly Talons, so we definitely disagree on that.

22 also features the worst characterization for the Sixth Doctor yet, as an arrogant, smug, mean little man, whose superiority is more important than the well being of those around him. In Vengeance it made sense, and in Two Doctors he's more than fine, but in the rest? Really.

He was only really as bad as you say in The Twin Dilemma. He was fine when his season actually started. Yeah he was arrogant, but so what? So were the 3rd Doctor, the 4th Doctor, the 7th Doctor, the 9th Doctor and the 12th Doctor for large portions of their runs. The 6th also wasn't really mean, just a bit cantankerous. I like him being more prickly than the blandly nice Davidson. He was argumentative, but honestly it never bothered me, either. I'm sure Big Finish turned him into the 5th Doctor with a fancier coat and different hair or something, but in canon the 6th Doctor's personality was fine, except for his very first serial.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Well, Moffat can say what he wants. He's the current showrunner, but he'll be gone eventually. They can go against Big Finish whenever they want, it just doesn't really come up because they don't cover the same territory very often. I'm sure they'd treat BF like the fanfiction it is if they had the slightest desire to do something that happened to contradict Big Finish.

The closest they've come to contradicting a BF story is The Fires of Vulcan, and even then they stressed out how they take place at the same time.

BBC wouldn't outright contradict BF. Both BBC Wales and BF work together on scripts, to make sure BF won't do a story that BBC Wales wants to do. And considering Big Finish will now fully do stories with NuWho characters, starting with Torchwood and UNIT and continuing with River Song, you can bet that bond will be stronger than ever.

That's just personal opinion, so I won't really argue too much. I love his real coat, but if you like the non canon coat better, that's fine. I think its stupid and only exists because some people just can't accept reality.

Some people? Some people? Some people?

Anyway, most everyone (with you and maybe Linkara being the expected few) agree that his multi-color coat is absolutely terrible. And it helped close-minded people like Michael Grade to move forward with its cancellation.

Furthermore, its so bad, its mere existence has become a joke in-verse. Both on audio and on comic strip, the only way the Doctor can defend the coat is to say that its exceptional "according to some alien species".

And the fact that you love this coat, but seemingly despise his outfit in The Magician's Apprentice, is both baffling and confusing.

Again, that's your opinion. I love Attack of the Cybermen, its one of the strongest Cybermen stories I've ever seen (and I've seen all of NuWho's stories, Tomb of the Cybermen, the Tom Baker, Colin Baker and McCoy Cybermen stories, and Earthshock) and I find Vengeance on varos to be fine, but a bit of a step down from AotCM and The Two Doctors. The Mark of the Rani is also very fun, although not quite great admittedly.

Fan consensus has Vengeance as Six's best story, with Mark of the Rani as a forgettable story at best, and Two Doctors as a weak effort by Holmes.

And I like Attack, but it is heavily flawed. I will say this, though - its better than almost all of NuWho's Cybermen stories. Sadly.

To me, Ainley is The Master. When I think of the character, I think of Ainley. Delgado was also quite good, but no one will match Ainley to me.

Au contraire - Delgado's the only completely characterized Master on-screen, whose relationship had some certain depth with the Doctor and who wasn't just an actor acting hammily for a living. He gave his best to make his Master believeable, and often carried really weak stories with him (Time Monster is worthy just for him).

Best after that? Well, Beevers from Keeper of Traken and his audio stories, who's simply amazing to listen to. Alex McQueen, also audio, is amazing as well. And Missy works well for me, too.

Being a pale imitation of the 2nd Doctor is still better than acting like Delgado's Master if he was about 10 times more psychotic.

Delgado's Master? Seriously? He's a darker Doctor, sure, but he's still the Doctor - with a meaner streak than anyone since the First one.

You know why? Because of Six's sacrifice in The Brink of Death. Hah!

Well, since you're the one who keeps declaring things "objectively" bad, while obviously having a lot of hatred for the same stuff, my questioning of your word comprehension stands.

Do you live under a rock? Its not my opinion - its consensus. As in, collective opinion. Get it?

The Two Doctors is my favorite Robert Holmes serial, outside of possibly Talons, so we definitely disagree on that.

Its nowhere near his best serials. For one, the dialogue isn't as sharp as usual, and the Sontarans are a touch silly in it.

The 6th also wasn't really mean, just a bit cantankerous. I like him being more prickly than the blandly nice Davidson. He was argumentative, but honestly it never bothered me, either. I'm sure Big Finish turned him into the 5th Doctor with a fancier coat and different hair or something, but in canon the 6th Doctor's personality was fine, except for his very first serial.

Given how you've never heard of Big Finish, your opinion holds no water. He's mellower, yes, but so was he in season 23, and he was superb there - better than he was in 22.

And for the last time, Big Finish material is canon. Its always been, given how BBC officially works with BF, and they carry licence from them. And since Night of the Doctor, its more than mere speculation.

 

[DarthPipes]

The Doctor's aversion to killing looks worse and worse when he refuses to put an end to Missy, who kills randomly just for the hell of it. Then he'll go an criticize humanity.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

My point is that I've been watching from the beginning and have never had the music drown out the audio.

In "Flatline" last year, loud music very nearly drowned out the Doctor's "I name you the Boneless!" hero moment. I didn't catch the last two words the the first time I watched it because of the music.

 

[Saul]

So why is the Doctor surprised about Skaro coming back? The 11th Doctor was there already.

Why does Missy offer the Daleks time travel when they could already time travel?

Why is Davros alive? Ok, maybe he escaped at the end of 'Journey's End' but are those other Daleks from his ship too? Is that supreme Dalek and is that Dalek Caan? What about the other Dalek empire we saw in 'Time of the Doctor'?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The TARDIS does more than time travel.
It can get into any place anywhere anytime.
And you can put millions of Daleks into it.
I can think of a few invasion plans using those abilities.

 

[kirk55555]

The closest they've come to contradicting a BF story is The Fires of Vulcan, and even then they stressed out how they take place at the same time.

BBC wouldn't outright contradict BF. Both BBC Wales and BF work together on scripts, to make sure BF won't do a story that BBC Wales wants to do. And considering Big Finish will now fully do stories with NuWho characters, starting with Torchwood and UNIT and continuing with River Song, you can bet that bond will be stronger than ever.

You don't know that. If a showrunner really wanted to have a story that, for example, wants to reintroduce Romana and justifies her surviving the Time War by saying that Romana never left E-Space (and so was never President of Gallifrey, one of the few things I know Big Finish did), they'd be allowed to do it, regardless of what Big Finish wanted. Even if they work together, the show is the priority.

And the fact that you love this coat, but seemingly despise his outfit in The Magician's Apprentice, is both baffling and confusing.

Because the coat is awesome, and even if you don't agree with that it is, at the very least, a distinct costume. Capaldi seems to have bullied the show into letting him literally wear the random crap he had in his closet. There is a big difference.

Fan consensus has Vengeance as Six's best story, with Mark of the Rani as a forgettable story at best, and Two Doctors as a weak effort by Holmes.

Fan consensus can change day to day. In the end, its all individual opinion.

Au contraire - Delgado's the only completely characterized Master on-screen, whose relationship had some certain depth with the Doctor and who wasn't just an actor acting hammily for a living. He gave his best to make his Master believeable, and often carried really weak stories with him (Time Monster is worthy just for him).

Delgado is very good, he's just no Ainley to me. I like the more manic, less series take on The Master, mostly because of how well Ainley did in the role.

Delgado's Master? Seriously? He's a darker Doctor, sure, but he's still the Doctor - with a meaner streak than anyone since the First one.

You know why? Because of Six's sacrifice in The Brink of Death. Hah!

Well, since there is no such thing as Brink of Death in canon, and the 6th Doctor's "sacrifice" was actually just the Rani making him trip and smash his head on a console, you're statement makes no sense. Actually, it makes no sense anyway since the 7th Doctor didn't become a psychopath until Mel left, and the change couldn't be even remotely connected to the 6th Doctor. The 7th Doctor became a psycho because Andrew Cartmel was a bad choice for Doctor Who, plain and simple. There really is no in universe explanation or justification for it, unless you think the 7th Doctor was always a sociopath, and just hid it with Mel for some reason.

The Two Doctors is my favorite Robert Holmes serial, outside of possibly Talons, so we definitely disagree on that.

Its nowhere near his best serials. For one, the dialogue isn't as sharp as usual, and the Sontarans are a touch silly in it.

Well, I liked it a lot, more than, say, Androzani or The Mysterious Planet, which were both good but not Talons or Two Doctors good.

Given how you've never heard of Big Finish, your opinion holds no water. He's mellower, yes, but so was he in season 23, and he was superb there - better than he was in 22.

I liked him a bit better in Season 23, but he's not that different, just a bit less rough. Plus, I've obviously heard of big finish, I just haven't listened to much (I think I've only heard the Paul McGann story where he meets Susan for the first time, and the 3rd Doctor story where Nicolas Courtney narrated the whole thing) and I don't take them as anything more than licensed fan fiction. I mean, I liked the two stories I listened to, but I'd never consider them canon (personally, I think The Doctor went back and visited Susan a lot earlier than his 8th incarnation).

And for the last time, Big Finish material is canon. Its always been, given how BBC officially works with BF, and they carry licence from them. And since Night of the Doctor, its more than mere speculation.

Nope, its still not canon, because it can be over written easily. All Night of the Doctor proved is that the 8th Doctor knew people with the same names as some of his Big Finish companions. For all we know, in the real canon "Charley" is actually the name of the robotic loch ness monster from Terror of the Zygons, who eventually becomes a companion. That would probably be a better idea that whoever "Charley" actually is, anyway. The only good non canon companion is Frobisher, in my opinion. Even then, I only say that because the idea of a shape shifting penguin is awesome, not because I know if the character was actually any good (my guess? unlikely).

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah, Davros coming back is particularly vague. Before yesterday's episode, I liked to think Davros went from Journey's End to BF's Terror Firma, becoming the Emperor Dalek, then getting destroyed by Bad Wolf Rose in Parting of the Ways.



Yeah, thats a personal pet theory, but I really didn't have any reason to think it wasn't true. Anyway, we have a week to find out the whole picture.

 

[Samurai8472]

Rating's weren't enough to beat x-factor

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34307519

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

You don't know that. If a showrunner really wanted to have a story that, for example, wants to reintroduce Romana and justifies her surviving the Time War by saying that Romana never left E-Space (and so was never President of Gallifrey, one of the few things I know Big Finish did), they'd be allowed to do it, regardless of what Big Finish wanted. Even if they work together, the show is the priority.

I do know that. The BBC and BF work together, AGAIN. What part did you not get? You just don't like the idea that BF is a semi-required outlet to enjoy DW at its fullest.

Heck, BBC has to approve every script that BF does, and vice-versa. Its not a speculative discussion, its fact.

Because the coat is awesome

Startling argument.

even if you don't agree with that it is, at the very least, a distinct costume.

I definitely agree there.

Capaldi seems to have bullied the show into letting him literally wear the random crap he had in his closet. There is a big difference.

You don't know that.

In fact, Allyn specifically mentioned that its random choosing of his at all.

Fan consensus can change day to day. In the end, its all individual opinion.

Not when it seemingly comes to Twin Dilemma, Timelash, and the Sixth Doctor's coat.

Delgado is very good, he's just no Ainley to me. I like the more manic, less series take on The Master, mostly because of how well Ainley did in the role.

And I contest he didn't do well at the part. Delgado took the part seriously, and even when he hammed, there was a knowing sense of wit and intelligence, making sure its the Master enjoying himself, not Delgado taking a take off. Whereas Ainley, when the script was bad, and it often was, was frequently ineffective and hammy to the point of annoyance. I can't stand him in Time-Flight.

Well, since there is no such thing as Brink of Death in canon, and the 6th Doctor's "sacrifice" was actually just the Rani making him trip and smash his head on a console, you're statement makes no sense.

Of course there is. Its called the Last Adventure box set, and its officially sanctioned by the BBC. Like most of BF's stuff.

And the Rani's beam is still there, don't worry. You really should listen to it - it dovetails nicely into Time and the Rani.

Actually, it makes no sense anyway since the 7th Doctor didn't become a psychopath until Mel left, and the change couldn't be even remotely connected to the 6th Doctor. The 7th Doctor became a psycho because Andrew Cartmel was a bad choice for Doctor Who, plain and simple. There really is no in universe explanation or justification for it, unless you think the 7th Doctor was always a sociopath, and just hid it with Mel for some reason.

BF slowly details Seven's derailment into darkness, as he starts out trying to be a nice fella, but situation after situation doesn't let him, at which case he accepts his real colors, and becomes more of himself.

Its also worth noting but at the end of his life, he's trying to do as much possible that he knows his next incarnation won't do, since he predicts it'll be a nice version of himself than he himself is.

Well, I liked it a lot, more than, say, Androzani or The Mysterious Planet, which were both good but not Talons or Two Doctors good.

I'd argue you have a good point for Mysterious Planet, but Androzani? The most widely accepted best story of OldWho? Its only real contest is, in fact, Talons.

At this point, I'm surprised you like Talons, as it is. But I guess I'm also relieved.

I liked him a bit better in Season 23, but he's not that different, just a bit less rough. Plus, I've obviously heard of big finish, I just haven't listened to much (I think I've only heard the Paul McGann story where he meets Susan for the first time, and the 3rd Doctor story where Nicolas Courtney narrated the whole thing) and I don't take them as anything more than licensed fan fiction. I mean, I liked the two stories I listened to, but I'd never consider them canon (personally, I think The Doctor went back and visited Susan a lot earlier than his 8th incarnation).

But canon doesn't work like that. Since the Eighth Doctor mentioned specific audio companions, that means their adventures are canon, which means the Doctor didn't meet Susan until his 8th self again - and it only makes sense, since such a monumental occasion would, or at least should have, been shown on TV.

Which is, on a side note, my issue with The Five Doctors - neither the Second or the Third Doctors give a shit when they see Susan again, whereas Five tries too much to show his affection by look, instead of interaction. BIG missed opportunity there.

Nope, its still not canon, because it can be over written easily. All Night of the Doctor proved is that the 8th Doctor knew people with the same names as some of his Big Finish companions. For all we know, in the real canon "Charley" is actually the name of the robotic loch ness monster from Terror of the Zygons, who eventually becomes a companion. That would probably be a better idea that whoever "Charley" actually is, anyway.

Except they're all Big Finish companions. They were all written in relation to this Doctor and his adventures as detailed in that medium. Its as subtle a reference to BF as a sledgehammer to the face. Get over yourself.

The only good non canon companion is Frobisher, in my opinion. Even then, I only say that because the idea of a shape shifting penguin is awesome, not because I know if the character was actually any good (my guess? unlikely).

Its not about good or bad. Charley's a canonical companion... "whether you like it, or not."

 

[Stevil2001]

Well this pointless tangent about canon is as fascinating as all the others.

Not sure what I think of "The Magician's Apprentice." It had a lot of parts that I liked: the teaser, seeing the Shadow Proclamation (no Judoon dialogue, though), Kate Stewart, Missy (though I think less would be more with the sex/flirting references), the ever-awesome Clara, the Doctor's entrance on the tank with guitar, the reveal of the invisible planet, UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING. But I'm not sure what it added up to, so I'll be curious to see what Part Two brings us and evaluate then.

I will say that I am tired about Moffat stories about the Doctor's knowledge of his imminent demise. Is this the third? Or fourth?

 

[ATimson]

I will say that I am tired about Moffat stories about the Doctor's knowledge of his imminent demise. Is this the third? Or fourth?

I would say second.

Technically the Doctor had about a half-hour of foreknowledge in "Let's Kill Hitler" after he was poisoned. And then there's "The Impossible Astronaut", but he knew about the Tesselecta before he went there to "die", so that shouldn't count.

Am I forgetting anything else, or is there just Trenzalore and this?