8x10 In the Forest of the Night (Grading/Discussion) SPOILERS!

[Mr. Adventure]

This episode had some interesting direction and choreography. I think some people were swept enough by the visuals and the dreamy premise that they were able to enjoy the episode on those terms. I could see that but didn't feel it because of other factors dragging me out of it.

 

[davejames]

Moffat needs to make the Doctor, the title character on this show, the STAR of this show. Not Clara's sidekick. Moffat admitted that Clara is basically the star of the show and that shouldn't be the case. I totally agree that he needs a companion of his own and inheriting Clara was a mistake.

Who knows, maybe Moffat wanted to go back to the original formula where companions like Barbara, Ian, and Susan were arguably the stars of the show and the Doctor was just kind of along for the ride.

Although personally I think we've still gotten to see plenty of this new Doctor this season, even if he wasn't the main focus of the show.

I do agree though, as much as I like Clara, that Capaldi really needs his own unique companion next season. These two might be entertaining to watch together, but it still doesn't feel like the most ideal type of companion for this Doctor.

 

[Mr Awe]

This episode had some interesting direction and choreography. I think some people were swept enough by the visuals and the dreamy premise that they were able to enjoy the episode on those terms. I could see that but didn't feel it because of other factors dragging me out of it.

I think that's what it takes to enjoy episodes like this. You have to be easily swept away by the visuals and premise.

The fact that it was stupid and that the characters' actions didn't make sense is what dragged me out of it.

Mr Awe

 

[Professor Zoom]

Well, you don't have to like the episode, but, when you criticize it for plot holes, it's worth considering first if they addressed the issue when you stopped paying attention (which was apparently about five seconds after the trees were shown to be fireproof since that's when it was stated). Sometimes an episode doesn't have plotholes, it's just an episode you don't like.

Meh. True enough. Still, the real problem is I wasn't really engaged in the episode. And I was looking around for something concrete to explain why.

They definitely should have shown it working. I have no reason to believe that it would. No one really knew anything about the trees, why would chemicals work?

Why wouldn't the leaves just grow right back? They appeared over night, growing very quickly. Couldn't they do that after chemicals?

All that being said, the Doctor's actions in stopping them from using the defoliating agent was the only action he took to save the day. It's the reason criticism that he was passive isn't quite accurate. However, since that was easy to miss, it was probably a good idea to make it more prominent and more clear.

It isn't quite accurate. So, somewhat accurate. And as others have pointed out, inaction is something he's been doing a lot this season.

 

[DarthPipes]

Moffat needs to make the Doctor, the title character on this show, the STAR of this show. Not Clara's sidekick. Moffat admitted that Clara is basically the star of the show and that shouldn't be the case. I totally agree that he needs a companion of his own and inheriting Clara was a mistake.

Who knows, maybe Moffat wanted to go back to the original formula where companions like Barbara, Ian, and Susan were arguably the stars of the show and the Doctor was just kind of along for the ride.

Although personally I think we've still gotten to see plenty of this new Doctor this season, even if he wasn't the main focus of the show.

I do agree though, as much as I like Clara, that Capaldi really needs his own unique companion next season. These two might be entertaining to watch together, but it still doesn't feel like the most ideal type of companion for this Doctor.

Thing is, by the time Ian and Barbara left the BBC realized that the Doctor could carry the show. That was almost 50 years ago.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Mr. Awe
I wasn't generalizing. I was reporting on what I had heard from the commentaries, from those who produced and directed those older stories. I have heard every commentary from "The Unearthly Child" to "The Carnival of Monsters".

I may feel the stories of the modern Who are rushed; however, I don't have the expertise or experience to make a judgement. However, those who do have the expertise and experience are the people who are saying that the modern Who stories are rushed.

DarthPipes
The change to Dr. Who being the main character came before Ian and Barbara left the show. It came in the serial "The Sensorites", a first series serial, when the Doctor seized the initiative to investiage what was happening with the Sensorites.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I may feel the stories of the modern Who are rushed; however, I don't have the expertise or experience to make a judgement. However, those who do have the expertise and experience are the people who are saying that the modern Who stories are rushed.

We're in 2014 and the 45-minute show is the standard. If other shows can manage that, I'm sure Doctor Who can as well. In fact, in the classic series, if you took down some of the "running down corridors", "the Doctor gets captured", "the Doctor escapes", "the Doctor solves last week's cliffhanger" stuff, you could pare them down quite significantly.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I think we have been in the era of the 45-minute tv story since the '80s. I think this format works best when there is one story (Plot A), works less best with two stories (Plots A/B), and begins to fall apart with three or more stories. Two classic examples in Star Trek are "The Measure of a Man" or "The Visitor". Looking at the list of favorite Doctor Who episodes (DW #474), the two top stories of this franchise are "The Day of the Doctor" and "Blink".

I don't remember much of the first seven seasons of the new modern Who. I am far more knowledgable of the classic Who. So, my opinion of the former is based on the current season, and I feel that some of the episodes were rushed. One episode I didn't feel that was rushed was "The Mummy on the Orient Express". I do feel that this current episode was rushed, and the closing scene was perplexing.

"In fact, in the classic series, if you took down some of the "running down corridors", "the Doctor gets captured", "the Doctor escapes", "the Doctor solves last week's cliffhanger" stuff, you could pare them down quite significantly."

According to the commentaries, these were the tools of the trade when the writers needed to pad out the episodes. The writer would learn that they were writing a x-number episode serial, and to extend the serial, they would include many of these extenders. I heard that a fan wrote a piece on the use of corridors in Doctor Who.

 

[Stevil2001]

I really enjoyed this one, and though I see most of the objections people have, none of them really bothered me except for the lack of people. Would have been better to just have the forest be in London, I think, and have the population evacuated-- but the school group gets missed because they're in the museum or something. (I wonder if that was the original intention-- is the worldwide forest mentioned in dialogue outside of the news segments?)

 

[Starkers]

I may feel the stories of the modern Who are rushed; however, I don't have the expertise or experience to make a judgement. However, those who do have the expertise and experience are the people who are saying that the modern Who stories are rushed.

We're in 2014 and the 45-minute show is the standard. If other shows can manage that, I'm sure Doctor Who can as well. In fact, in the classic series, if you took down some of the "running down corridors", "the Doctor gets captured", "the Doctor escapes", "the Doctor solves last week's cliffhanger" stuff, you could pare them down quite significantly.

The thing is there is no right or wrong answer on this. There are plenty of classis serials that were 4,6 or 7 episodes long that worked just fine, and plenty that were padded out terribly. Similarly there are plenty of nuWho episodes that work perfectly with the 42ish minute run time, and there are plenty where a bit longer would have made for a better story, but by a bit longer I don't mean a two parter neccesarily because there have been plenty of 2 parters that have been a bit rubbish because the story has been stretched needlessly!

Times change, horses for courses etc etc...

 

[Mr Awe]

I may feel the stories of the modern Who are rushed; however, I don't have the expertise or experience to make a judgement. However, those who do have the expertise and experience are the people who are saying that the modern Who stories are rushed.

We're in 2014 and the 45-minute show is the standard. If other shows can manage that, I'm sure Doctor Who can as well. In fact, in the classic series, if you took down some of the "running down corridors", "the Doctor gets captured", "the Doctor escapes", "the Doctor solves last week's cliffhanger" stuff, you could pare them down quite significantly.

The thing is there is no right or wrong answer on this. There are plenty of classis serials that were 4,6 or 7 episodes long that worked just fine, and plenty that were padded out terribly. Similarly there are plenty of nuWho episodes that work perfectly with the 42ish minute run time, and there are plenty where a bit longer would have made for a better story, but by a bit longer I don't mean a two parter neccesarily because there have been plenty of 2 parters that have been a bit rubbish because the story has been stretched needlessly!

Times change, horses for courses etc etc...

That's absolutely right and I provided examples further up for longer and shorter stories of classic Who that worked.

One aspect of good writing is write a story that works in the time allotted. If a 42 minute episode feels rushed, it's because there was too much story for the time. You can fit a good story into any length.

Mr Awe

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Blink, Midnight and quite a lot of others, are not rushed, and are in perfect length in 45 minutes. Mr Awe is right, a good story can fit into any length. No question.

There are SOOOOOOOO many stories in OldWho that would've been so much better in a 45 minute form. A lot of padding, a lot of running around, and too much plot in the expense of character is among the common and running flaws of the old format of the show.

So no, four episodes of 25 minutes is NOT the best format.

 

[Skellington]

Blink, Midnight and quite a lot of others, are not rushed, and are in perfect length in 45 minutes.

Blink actually feels rushed to me, as if the scenes don't quite have enough room to breathe. Five or ten minutes more probably wouldn't have hurt. But it's still a classic, IMO.

 

[DWF]

Blink, Midnight and quite a lot of others, are not rushed, and are in perfect length in 45 minutes. Mr Awe is right, a good story can fit into any length. No question.

There are SOOOOOOOO many stories in OldWho that would've been so much better in a 45 minute form. A lot of padding, a lot of running around, and too much plot in the expense of character is among the common and running flaws of the old format of the show.

So no, four episodes of 25 minutes is NOT the best format.

Alot of the padding on the old show was the result of eps. running under length. The old series did work more a theater based show. The recent season however I don't think would feel so rushed if they didn't have Clara's domestic storyline this season. But 45 minute shows can feel just as rushed if the conclusion of the ep. happens right at the end,

 

[Lakenheath 72]

In the latest survey (Dr. Who Magazine #474), in the list of top 10 stories
* 4 are from the current era of Dr. Who (The Day of the Doctor, Blink, The Empty Child, Human Nature)
* 4 are four-episode serials (The Caves of Androzani, The City of Death, The Pyramids of Mars, Remembrance of the Daleks)
* 2 are six-episode serials (The Genesis of the Daleks, The Talons of Weng-Chiang)

I have seen all of the Classic Dr. Who serials listed here. I have enjoyed all of them.

I have seen The Day of the Doctor (I felt the Zygon plot was unnecessary and unresolved) and The Empty Child, which I liked.

 

[Skellington]

This episode, apparently set in 2016, takes place after the 21st century bits in The Day Of The Doctor. That episode features Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, who supposedly first met the Doctor in The Power Of Three - in 2020 or 2021, if I recall.

Okay, that's it. Someone just dreamt the whole thing. My money's on Missy.

 

[Captrek]

* 4 are from the current era of Dr. Who (The Day of the Doctor, Blink, The Empty Child, Human Nature)

Interestingly, that includes a double-length episode and two two-parters. Only Blink is a 45-minute story.

 

[The Wormhole]

This episode, apparently set in 2016, takes place after the 21st century bits in The Day Of The Doctor. That episode features Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, who supposedly first met the Doctor in The Power Of Three - in 2020 or 2021, if I recall.

Okay, that's it. Someone just dreamt the whole thing. My money's on Missy.

The Power of Three does take place in 2016, and therefore so does the 21st century portion of Day of the Doctor. All 21st century stuff in season 8 likely takes place in 2017, to take into account Time of the Doctor is set on Christmas day, and Clara's stated age in Deep Breath of 27.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I checked the Dr. Who wiki to see if there is a date for "The Power of Three". It says that the story is set in London, 21st century.

"The Day of the Doctor" is set between 2013 and 2016. Clara was a nanny in 2013 and a teacher by 2016. She was a teacher in that episode.

In the episode "Into the Dalek", Danny Pink is a new teacher at Coal Hill School. In the episode "The Caretaker", it was said that he called Courtney Woods a "very disruptive influence" a year before the episode. So, the classroom scenes in "Deep Breath" could have taken place in 2014 or 2015, and "In the Forest of the Dark" was set in 2016. The Christmas Day in "Time of the Doctor" could have been set in 2014 or 2015. She hadn't met Danny Pink at the time.

 

[The Wormhole]

The 21st century of Moffat era breaks down like so:

-Seasons 5 and 6 are "present day," 2010 and 2011 respectively, stated so on screen.
-The epilogue scene in The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe is set in 2013, "two years" after the Doctor stopped traveling with Amy and Rory.
-Pond Life covers the year 2014, with Asylum of the Daleks being set in August of that year.
-Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is ten month after Asylum, making it June 2015.
-Based on screen information, The Power of Three is set from July one year to July of the next. I assume it to be July 2015 to July 2016.
-The Angels Take Manhattan then goes back to 2012 for some reason.
-The second half of season 7 (stated in dialogue) is set in 2013 and Clara's age is given as 24.
-In Deep Breath Clara's age is given as 27, proving that three years have gone by for her since meeting the Doctor. Therefore the 21st century portion of Day of the Doctor is in 2016, likely sometime after July to allow the Doctor and Kate Stewart to know each other. Time of the Doctor is set on Christmas Day 2016.
-Making season 8 set in 2017.