8472: What Went Wrong?

[Withers]

Here's an idea that, on paper, sounds like a good one; something that is finally more powerful than the Borg without being a Q or the Prophets. It's another space fairing civilization (Fluidic Space fairing I guess) that so happens to be immune to assimilation (much like the crew of Voyager was at one point) so... why did this turn out so abysmally?

Obviously the idea was executed to stern disapproval from the majority of fans but was there a way to do it right that they missed? Was there a simpler way to tell this story that would have been effective? Was there something they missed that could've made the whole idea more acceptable or was it doomed from the onset (the idea of something hand the Borg its proverbial ass)?


Thoughts?

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Nope. They were introduced as a simple plot device to explain why the Borg wouldn't just annihilate Voyager in a millisecond. Once that story was done, the writers had no further use for them and needed them gone before they had too much of an effect on the Trekverse with the nigh-godlike power. They knew VOY could never defeat them, and having the Borg defeat or assimilate them wasn't an option. So they figured they'd just make them another misunderstood race that could be reasoned with, because it was the final appearance anyways so it didn't matter if this was against prior characterization.

 

[Deks]

Well, actually, I think what happened in 'Prey' could have been used as a stepping stone towards Voyager achieving a shaky peace with 8472 at best.
Of course, that episode would have required for the events to unfold in a different capacity instead of the one we got (not that I think it wasn't a good episode or that it didn't have a good ending).

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

It was probably too difficult to use them on the show as they were pure CGI.

 

[exodus]

It was probably too difficult to use them on the show as they were pure CGI.

Both you & Anwar are correct.

 

[Guy Gardener]

To say that they were too expensive to ever use again is pathetic foresight on the part of the blokes running this clusterfuck.

To anticipate that they would never be worth writing about again makes one wonder why they were ever worth writing about in the first place?


Notice that even after 8472 was anthrpomorpisied, and became cheaper to use than every other bugger who had to have a plastic vagina glued to hs forhead, it was then that they were never used again, so honestly cost was never the issue, since the cgi could have been sidelined or scrapped at point after their first encounter with Janeway.

They almost killed Kim so they're aces in my book.

Besides at the time they first appeared I was rolling on the ground teary eyed laughing that these Great and Powerful Star trek Villians looked like Shadows from Babylon 5 minus a few apendages... A friend then afforded my concerns that the modelling was done by the same company, which made me laugh harder.

here's where I get REALLY angry.

If Berman and his cronies hadn't been such stoolies with 8472, then I would have had more Tholians SOONER on Enterprise.

 

[Anwar]

Well, actually not using the Tholians wasn't due to CGI it was due to royalties. The Tholians belong to the original writer of "Tholian Web" not to Trek itself. It's the Locarno/Paris thing over again.

 

[Voyagerian]

I'd like to have seen more of BOTH...but, yep, it is true, that 8472 was too powerful...then again, I always looked at the Borg as being the one race Starfleet, or anyone else would be akin to a kid tossing stones at an Abrams tank...

 

[Guy Gardener]

"sigh"

I do wonder what the price tag would have been for each time they tapped the tholians?

I mean remember in the beginning of Enterprise when T'Pol from berman's ass was initially going to be T'Pau from TOS's Anok Time because ti would have been cool, but they decided against because the royalties pay out was going to eat into their budget too much? That didn't stop them from using T'Pau for three episdes in the fourth season wonce Cotto took over.

If they want a character or species bad enough they'll pay for a special ocassion, but every week for the mundane drudgery it's hardly worth scrimping on the cateering budget.

 

[Guy Gardener]

or anyone else would be akin to a kid tossing stones at an Abrams tank...

The word "stones" seems unnecessary.

 

[Anwar]

That didn't stop them from using T'Pau for three episdes in the fourth season wonce Cotto took over.

If they want a character or species bad enough they'll pay for a special ocassion, but every week for the mundane drudgery it's hardly worth scrimping on the cateering budget.

Yes, and apparently when it came to the Gorn and Tholians (both of which were only every used once, so it's not like they were the Holy Grail of Trek villains) they just weren't willing to pay. Easier to just make brand new villains that cost nothing extra and can be brought back. Plus with new villains you can just do anything you want and not be held back by a prior show's presentation of them.

 

[Withers]

They ruined it for me when Boothby became their spokesperson. After that episode I A.) no longer took them seriously and B.) knew the Voyager writers had checked out like seniors in May.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

More like they realized this was the last of 8472 and just didn't care by that point. And why should they? This was the last they were going to be seen, so it didn't matter how it was. If they were leaving the door open for future stories it would've been a better showing, but this was meant to be the final conclusion so what's the point?

 

[Withers]

More like they realized this was the last of 8472 and just didn't care by that point. And why should they?

Pride. They don't get a pass from me since this was the 'final cruise of 8472' anymore than Enterprise gets a pass for having their final episode suck harder than pretty much any other episode of that series. You don't just give up at the end. The idea hints at the phrase "out with a bang."

-Withers-​

 

[Guy Gardener]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the acronym for this threads name syncs perfectly with the overall tone of our conversation?

E.W.W.W?

 

[Voyagerian]

"sigh"

I do wonder what the price tag would have been for each time they tapped the tholians?

I mean remember in the beginning of Enterprise when T'Pol from berman's ass was initially going to be T'Pau from TOS's Anok Time because ti would have been cool, but they decided against because the royalties pay out was going to eat into their budget too much? That didn't stop them from using T'Pau for three episdes in the fourth season wonce Cotto took over.

If they want a character or species bad enough they'll pay for a special ocassion, but every week for the mundane drudgery it's hardly worth scrimping on the cateering budget.

Yes, yes, yes, point taken, and before I posted comment above. I get it-FX expensive.

 

[Withers]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the acronym for this threads name syncs perfectly with the overall tone of our conversation?

E.W.W.W?

No

-Withers-​

 

[Guy Gardener]

"sigh"

I do wonder what the price tag would have been for each time they tapped the tholians?

I mean remember in the beginning of Enterprise when T'Pol from Berman's ass was initially going to be T'Pau from TOS's Amok Time because ti would have been cool, but they decided against because the royalties pay out was going to eat into their budget too much? That didn't stop them from using T'Pau for three episodes in the fourth season once Cotto took over.

If they want a character or species bad enough they'll pay for a special occasion, but every week for the mundane drudgery it's hardly worth scrimping on the careering budget.

Yes, yes, yes, point taken, and before I posted comment above. I get it-FX expensive.

No, that rant was about agreeing how sad it is that Royalties are expensive, but if you don't have the patience of a some one with mild dementia, the constant repetition of subjects and points of contention are going to drive you spare.

Though Berman et All are teaching their juniors in the wings very bad lessons. If he's not going to draw from the great wealth of Star trek which belongs to the last guys, then the next guys are going to leave his "intellectual properties" to gather dust and mould too.

 

[Anwar]

The idea hints at the phrase "out with a bang."

Why waste that on something that ISN'T a season finale/premiere or the finale, and in fact was never anything more than a momentary plot device? Save the energy for the bang for something more important like a two-parter or something rather than one episode about the last of a plot device species that outlived their usefulness?

 

[Anwar]

"sigh"

I do wonder what the price tag would have been for each time they tapped the tholians?

I mean remember in the beginning of Enterprise when T'Pol from Berman's ass was initially going to be T'Pau from TOS's Amok Time because ti would have been cool, but they decided against because the royalties pay out was going to eat into their budget too much? That didn't stop them from using T'Pau for three episodes in the fourth season once Cotto took over.

If they want a character or species bad enough they'll pay for a special occasion, but every week for the mundane drudgery it's hardly worth scrimping on the careering budget.

Yes, yes, yes, point taken, and before I posted comment above. I get it-FX expensive.

No, that rant was about agreeing how sad it is that Royalties are expensive, but if you don't have the patience of a some one with mild dementia, the constant repetition of subjects and points of contention are going to drive you spare.

Though Berman et All are teaching their juniors in the wings very bad lessons. If he's not going to draw from the great wealth of Star trek which belongs to the last guys, then the next guys are going to leave his "intellectual properties" to gather dust and mould too.

Nah, Berman and co were smart enough to use their creations more than once (the really good ones anyways) so they're up in the air for anyone to use now. The bad lessons were the ones from TOS since it's THEIR fault for not using those characters more than once.