7X13 The Name Of The Doctor(Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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I agree with you personally, since it's the 50th Anniversary and I think they have bigger fish to fry than stuff that happened in 2008 with the new Daleks. It would make more sense to delve deeper in the mythology than that.
However, it's still interesting stuff to ponder. Him being the clone would dovetail with the presence of Ten and Rose in the special, and tonight Eleven said "I said he's me. I never said he's the Doctor." It would also be less complicated than a forgotten regeneration tying the fandom in knots....
This episode really needed more lead-in for it. Would have liked to have seen the Whisper Men before this.
The opening sequence had me TOTALLY geeking out. That was amazing. We got to see the ORIGINAL Doctor stealing the Tardis!!!! And then we got cameos of all eight original doctors!!! Total nerdvana!!!
The rest of the episode was a little too quick and easy. We just hop right to Trenzalore. The Great Intelligence shows up and gets right to what he wants. And the big solution is just to jump in a light. I was hoping for something more clever.
It was great to see the Tardis at its true size. Though I would have liked to have seen sections asymmetrically jutting out of the police box shape...
And, having spent a season building up the true name of the Doctor, and calling this episode "The Name of the Doctor"... I find it a bit of a cheat that we don't learn his name.
Unless his name was "Please". That's what he said. Doctor Please. And looking back on it, don't people say "Doctor, please!" all the time?
I was really hoping the figure at the end was Tennant. Oh well. It seems to me that Hurt is the Valeyard, but I haven't seen that episode yet I've only read of it. I am glad that this episode lead into the Anniversary Special.
The opening sequence had me TOTALLY geeking out. That was amazing. We got to see the ORIGINAL Doctor stealing the Tardis!!!! And then we got cameos of all eight original doctors!!! Total nerdvana!!!
The rest of the episode was a little too quick and easy. We just hop right to Trenzalore. The Great Intelligence shows up and gets right to what he wants. And the big solution is just to jump in a light. I was hoping for something more clever.
It was great to see the Tardis at its true size. Though I would have liked to have seen sections asymmetrically jutting out of the police box shape...
And, having spent a season building up the true name of the Doctor, and calling this episode "The Name of the Doctor"... I find it a bit of a cheat that we don't learn his name.
Unless his name was "Please". That's what he said. Doctor Please. And looking back on it, don't people say "Doctor, please!" all the time?
I was really hoping the figure at the end was Tennant. Oh well. It seems to me that Hurt is the Valeyard, but I haven't seen that episode yet I've only read of it. I am glad that this episode lead into the Anniversary Special.
Reminds me of something he said in The Beast Below:
"Three options. One, I let the Star Whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years. Two, I kill everyone on this ship. Three, I murder a beautiful, innocent creature as painlessly as I can. And then I find a new name 'cause I won't be The Doctor anymore."
I remember back when "Journey's End" aired, I thought the Meta-Criss Doctor was the way they would give us the Valeyard. You know, since the Valeyard is supposed be between the 12th and 13th Doctor, meaning he was supposed to be Doctor 12.5, and since the Meta-Crisis Doctor is technically Doctor 10.5, it would make sense that the Valeyard is a regeneration of the Meta-Crisis Doctor. And before anyone says, "He's human and can't regenerate!" If the Master can't get more regeneration, and River Song can regenerate, surely a human with the memories of a Timelord can figure out how to regenerate.
Christ, it's gonna be a long wait to the fiftieth.
Utterly fantastic, probably the best of this series. The Victorian Trio are always a delight - and I would've been pissed if Jenny were really dead - and River got a great sendoff. Whisper Men were very creepy, the Great Intelligence was excellent, and Smith and Coleman just killed it. Really enjoyed all the past Doctor stuff. I'm on the "Hurt Doctor is a Time War incarnation" side, that he's no longer "worthy " of the name.
What happened to Jenny and Strax was definitely more effectively scary than the stars going out. Roll on November!
Nobody cares.
What happened to Jenny and Strax was definitely more effectively scary than the stars going out. Roll on November!
Nobody cares.
I certainly enjoyed this more than some I have this season. I'm not as blown away as many of you seem to be, but I did enjoy it. I think perhaps I appreciated it more on an intellectual level than an emotional one. I still think I was invested more emotionally in RTD's DW than Moffat's, but this was the best of Moffat's finales in that sense.
There's no proof that Clara ever knew the Doctor's real name. What she said in "Journey" was "So that's who." That could be interpreted as the name, but not necessarily. What she could be reading - especially since she was looking in a book called History of the Time War - is the truth of what he did.
You have a point about River, though. It was specifically set up that Clara was the only one who could hear River, for whatever reason (at least until the Doctor said he could too).
Which means that three times in a row, The Silence did not take River into account, which considering that they created her is kind of stupid on their part. In "The Big Bang," they trapped the Doctor in the Pandorica to stop him from blowing up the Tardis, but they forgot that River knows how to work the Tardis too. In "Wedding" she was supposed to kill him, but they didn't count on her being in love with him. And now in "Name," the whole reason they tried to kill him in "Astronaut" was to stop him speaking his name here, but they forgot that River knows his name too.
You may think the title led you to believe the actual name would be revealed, but only because you allowed the title to misdirect you, which it was obviously intended to do. But what the title really means is revealed at the end - "What you did, you didn't do in the name of the Doctor."
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I actually appreciated that this was more slow-paced than "Big Bang" or "Wedding." Those were both so stuffed full of complications and side stories that they were a big narrative mess, whereas this was a lot more straightforward, leaving room in the script for the more emotional moments.
There's no proof that Clara ever knew the Doctor's real name. What she said in "Journey" was "So that's who." That could be interpreted as the name, but not necessarily. What she could be reading - especially since she was looking in a book called History of the Time War - is the truth of what he did.
You have a point about River, though. It was specifically set up that Clara was the only one who could hear River, for whatever reason (at least until the Doctor said he could too).
Which means that three times in a row, The Silence did not take River into account, which considering that they created her is kind of stupid on their part. In "The Big Bang," they trapped the Doctor in the Pandorica to stop him from blowing up the Tardis, but they forgot that River knows how to work the Tardis too. In "Wedding" she was supposed to kill him, but they didn't count on her being in love with him. And now in "Name," the whole reason they tried to kill him in "Astronaut" was to stop him speaking his name here, but they forgot that River knows his name too.
But the actual name was not really the point. What can a simple word really tell us? Any name we hear is going to be a disappointment so you can never actually say what the name is. And as I say, I don't think that's the point. The name of the Doctor is "The Doctor" because that's what he chose. And what is important is the reason he chose it, what it means to him to use that name.
You may think the title led you to believe the actual name would be revealed, but only because you allowed the title to misdirect you, which it was obviously intended to do. But what the title really means is revealed at the end - "What you did, you didn't do in the name of the Doctor."
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I really can't see anyone can come to that conclusion - they very clearly set it up so he has to a Doctor not a pre-Doctor plus they label him as such - most likely between Eight and what we thought was nine.
Did they fuck with us?
Surely the name of the Doctor is the Doctor.
He evidentially has many, many names.
But the name they focussed on this episode was the Doctor even if his given flashed us from off camera.
The episode was about "why" is the Doctors name Doctor and not "what" is the Doctors other name.
Frakk.
The Splintered Clara's... lets assume that some of them knew th nature of the game they were playing and others were fricking clueless.
The Girl in the shop might have been Clara.
So...
Susan walks into the Tardis they are stealing, then Clara says "not that one, this one..." the Doctor pivots and takes the right TARDIS accidentally abandoning Susan on Gallifrey.
The Doctor went joy riding with the master remember.
Maybe the Doctor stole a lot of TARDISs?
Surely the name of the Doctor is the Doctor.
He evidentially has many, many names.
But the name they focussed on this episode was the Doctor even if his given flashed us from off camera.
The episode was about "why" is the Doctors name Doctor and not "what" is the Doctors other name.
Frakk.
The Splintered Clara's... lets assume that some of them knew th nature of the game they were playing and others were fricking clueless.
The Girl in the shop might have been Clara.
So...
Susan walks into the Tardis they are stealing, then Clara says "not that one, this one..." the Doctor pivots and takes the right TARDIS accidentally abandoning Susan on Gallifrey.
The Doctor went joy riding with the master remember.
Maybe the Doctor stole a lot of TARDISs?
Shouldn't Clara also know the Doctor's name by the time they were at the gates? She knew it at the end of Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. A scuffle between her and River was in order.
I've always considered his race to treat names similar to how some human cultures do.
In many cultures, a child is born with a name given by its parents and once the child reaches adulthood it chooses a new name as a sign that a new chapter in life has begun and the child of the old days has chosen its own path.
Some of the other names in this episode are ones he was given by others and we all know who/what the Valeyard is.
I wonder if when the Doctor looked into the untempered schism when he was a child if he saw his future and what he'd do and chose the name "Doctor" as a promise not to become that person. Hence the rage at the regeneration that "Broke the promise" and what he did not being in the "Name of the doctor".
How well was he keeping that promise while he was strangling Peri?
"Timelord Victorious" anyone?
"Timelord Victorious" anyone?
Yes?
Yeah, but it's Peri so we give him a by on that one.
Sorry. Wrong number.
I really haven't been following the spoilers.
John was tapped because someone fumbled Chris?
That just seems desperate.
People have complained all this season that the arc wasn't as strong as previous seasons. There's a certain truth to that, but I think the difference is actually just that the arc wasn't as obvious this season.
The "crack in time" and "who is River" arcs were very in-your-face, whereas the arc this season has been much subtler, constructed not out of plot hints and twists, but out of repeated themes and concepts and motifs.
Which, actually, is exactly how RTD used to do it.
Really, the solution to the Impossible Girl problem was basically Bad Wolf mark II. The only difference is that Eleven was aware of the arc's existence while Nine wasn't.
The first idea we were introduced to back in "Asylum of the Daleks" was that in the wake of last season, the Doctor had gone around removing himself from the history books. He left it so that no-one knew who he was. That was brought up again in "Dinosaurs" and "Angels." What does the GI do in "Name"? He goes to remove the Doctor from the history books, just taking it a step further by deleting all the good things he did, not just his name.
The Doctor visiting his own grave was a big plot point in "Name"... just as it was when Amy and Rory visited their own grave in "Angels," and present-Clara did at the end of "The Snowman." Clara got freaked out in "Hide" at the thought that her own dead body was buried somewhere in the Earth when the Doctor took her through her planet's lifetime. The Doctor himself does the same in "Name."
The leaf was introduced in "Akhaten" as the embodiment of all of Clara's life potential. It was powerful enough to subdue a god. Now we know why - it contained all of the Doctor's timeline and infinite lives, and was used at the end of "Name" to give Clara her identity back.
Echoes and reflections have been a consistent motif. The GI created digital echoes of people in "Bells." The time-travelling woman had been echoing through all of Earth's history in "Hide," connected to one particular person. The Doctor fights a reflection of himself in "Silver." The Tardis threw up echoes of itself to protect itself in "Journey." And of course the biggest echo of all - Clara, echoing all through the Doctor's timeline. Living and dying, living and dying... just like the Doctor.
There were constant references to previous Doctors throughout the season, especially the second half. He mentions earlier Dalek encounters in "Asylum." The GI itself in "Snowmen" and "Bells" is a Second Doctor villain. He mentions a granddaughter in "Akhaten" - a First Doctor reference. Ice Warriors are a Third Doctor villain, and "Hide" was basically a Third Doctor story. "Journey" contains soundbites and old props from previous Doctors. The 'gobby Australian' namecheck in "Crimson" is a Fifth Doctor reference. The Cyber-Planner-Doctor in "Silver" repeats Nine's and Ten's catchphrases. All of this reminding us of previous Doctors was obviously there to set us up for the revelation of a hidden Doctor no-one knows about here in "Name."
All of these things come together in the season finale, just much more subtly than the obvious "who is Clara" question.
.
The "crack in time" and "who is River" arcs were very in-your-face, whereas the arc this season has been much subtler, constructed not out of plot hints and twists, but out of repeated themes and concepts and motifs.
Which, actually, is exactly how RTD used to do it.
Really, the solution to the Impossible Girl problem was basically Bad Wolf mark II. The only difference is that Eleven was aware of the arc's existence while Nine wasn't.
The first idea we were introduced to back in "Asylum of the Daleks" was that in the wake of last season, the Doctor had gone around removing himself from the history books. He left it so that no-one knew who he was. That was brought up again in "Dinosaurs" and "Angels." What does the GI do in "Name"? He goes to remove the Doctor from the history books, just taking it a step further by deleting all the good things he did, not just his name.
The Doctor visiting his own grave was a big plot point in "Name"... just as it was when Amy and Rory visited their own grave in "Angels," and present-Clara did at the end of "The Snowman." Clara got freaked out in "Hide" at the thought that her own dead body was buried somewhere in the Earth when the Doctor took her through her planet's lifetime. The Doctor himself does the same in "Name."
The leaf was introduced in "Akhaten" as the embodiment of all of Clara's life potential. It was powerful enough to subdue a god. Now we know why - it contained all of the Doctor's timeline and infinite lives, and was used at the end of "Name" to give Clara her identity back.
Echoes and reflections have been a consistent motif. The GI created digital echoes of people in "Bells." The time-travelling woman had been echoing through all of Earth's history in "Hide," connected to one particular person. The Doctor fights a reflection of himself in "Silver." The Tardis threw up echoes of itself to protect itself in "Journey." And of course the biggest echo of all - Clara, echoing all through the Doctor's timeline. Living and dying, living and dying... just like the Doctor.
There were constant references to previous Doctors throughout the season, especially the second half. He mentions earlier Dalek encounters in "Asylum." The GI itself in "Snowmen" and "Bells" is a Second Doctor villain. He mentions a granddaughter in "Akhaten" - a First Doctor reference. Ice Warriors are a Third Doctor villain, and "Hide" was basically a Third Doctor story. "Journey" contains soundbites and old props from previous Doctors. The 'gobby Australian' namecheck in "Crimson" is a Fifth Doctor reference. The Cyber-Planner-Doctor in "Silver" repeats Nine's and Ten's catchphrases. All of this reminding us of previous Doctors was obviously there to set us up for the revelation of a hidden Doctor no-one knows about here in "Name."
All of these things come together in the season finale, just much more subtly than the obvious "who is Clara" question.
.