7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[RoJoHen]

Perhaps I should clarify, not the story of the episode (though that had pacing problems) but the story of the arch itself, indeed the season so far felt as if it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Not a lick of sense? I don't know, it seemed to be pretty straightforward. The Doctor didn't want the Ponds to leave him, the Ponds were thinking about quitting anyway, and circumstances ultimately made the decision for them. That's the arc, isn't it? What's nonsensical about that? Or are you talking about something else?

That is indeed the arc, and the end of it kinda sucks. If you're just going to trap the Ponds back in time anyway, what dramatic purpose does it serve to have them going back and forth about whether or not they want to quit? Their fate pretty much make the conversations in the earlier episodes worthless.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

That is indeed the arc, and the end of it kinda sucks. If you're just going to trap the Ponds back in time anyway, what dramatic purpose does it serve to have them going back and forth about whether or not they want to quit? Their fate pretty much make the conversations in the earlier episodes worthless.

An inescapable fate makes prior conversations about free will worthless? Well, there goes Hamlet. In fact, characters debating big personal issues before having their decisions annihilated by a cruel fate is pretty much what tragedy is all about.

 

[Starkers]

^Exactly, the fact the Ponds gave up the chance to walk away from the Doctor makes their eventual end all the more tragic, otherwise, well like you say where's the drama. There's no point having Rose go on and on about spending her entire life travelling with the Doctor only for her not to do it, it's so unfair, and poor Adric, after he decided to go home to E space then saying he wanted to stay with the Doctor they only went and killed him, curse you drama!

I would concede that maybe the decision they made in The Power of Three should have come sooner in the arc, and I do wonder if TPOT was supposed to air before A Town Called Mercy.

 

[O'Dib]

Moffat is pretty obsessive, I've found, about tying up loose ends, so there's a good chance we'll learn more about why the Ponds stayed in the past (instead of requesting pickup elsewhere/elsewhen), and the Doctor let them. Experiencing the 20th century up to the point when they were roughly born, the part they mostly knew from history, and having seen the future, who's to say they didn't wanna stay and live a time adventure sans Doctor? They were gonna leave him anyway. And he was beginning to realize they would end, making him likely to just stop visiting at some point. Did I hear that line correctly, had they really spent ten years traveling with him, with roughly 2 years passing in their present-day?

Anyway, WWII America would be an amazing time for a present-day nurse to show off and teach his skills, and a head-strong feminist to join/lead the women-in-the-workforce movement. Maybe they were so important they did become fixed points in time. The 60s? Weed was mild and chill, and occasionally dropping acid meant they would still get to trip their balls off much like in a time vortex.

Alternatively, the angel fed on both their time potentials, possibly meaning they could no longer travel in time. Amy got fed on willingly. Doc got the message. Though, did people sent to the past in Blink get time locked when eaten by an angel? Either way. I was puzzled by the angels suddenly learning to convert other statues. This outcome was certainly hinted at with the hokey ending to Blink. Hopefully we'll learn more about the how of it.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Obsessive about tying up loose ends? *snigger*

 

[Starkers]

Though, did people sent to the past in Blink get time locked when eaten by an angel?

Given that both the Doctor and Martha got zapped back to the past, I'm guessing not. It isn't about being time locked as such, it's about whether your story suddenly becomes a fixed point from the Doctor's point of view.

And Winnie, even I'll laugh at that

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Though, did people sent to the past in Blink get time locked when eaten by an angel?

Given that both the Doctor and Martha got zapped back to the past, I'm guessing not. It isn't about being time locked as such, it's about whether your story suddenly becomes a fixed point from the Doctor's point of view.

And Winnie, even I'll laugh at that

Thing is there are so many ways around that particular paradox that you don't even have to think particularly hard to get round it. Which is what's so very frustrating about the last couple of series. Huge gaps in logic and lack of following through in the story, or just plain not sticking to the rules you already established. So "This is a fixed point" becomes "I cheated" then becomes "no really, this is a fixed point, no, Really really" without a convincing reason. Other than "these actors want to leave" of course.

 

[Starkers]

Thing is this isn't just about the last few series. Why couldn't the Doctor pop back to see Reinette? Why couldn't the Doctor travel back a matter of minutes to save Adric?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Thing is this isn't just about the last few series. Why couldn't the Doctor pop back to see Reinette? Why couldn't the Doctor travel back a matter of minutes to save Adric?

Well Reinette made at least some sense given the rules they'd set out because he knew for a fact he'd never visited her after he jumped on the TARDIS, but for Amy and Rory all we have is a gravestone. That tells him nothing but the gravestone is there. There doesn't even have to be bodies in there. Or if there are he could have brought them back there in their 80s and let them live their last few years there. The fact the gravestone is there means nothing at all in the life they had.

When it comes to Adric, well that much is obvious. He wanted the little prick to die.

 

[Starkers]

Thing is this isn't just about the last few series. Why couldn't the Doctor pop back to see Reinette? Why couldn't the Doctor travel back a matter of minutes to save Adric?

Well Reinette made at least some sense given the rules they'd set out because he knew for a fact he'd never visited her after he jumped on the TARDIS, but for Amy and Rory all we have is a gravestone. That tells him nothing but the gravestone is there. There doesn't even have to be bodies in there. Or if there are he could have brought them back there in their 80s and let them live their last few years there. The fact the gravestone is there means nothing at all in the life they had.

When it comes to Adric, well that much is obvious. He wanted the little prick to die.

How do we know for a fact he never visited Reinette? Her letter? What does that prove? As I said upthread I can easily visualise Reinette and the 11th/12th/13th Doctor sitting down together to write it!

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Thing is this isn't just about the last few series. Why couldn't the Doctor pop back to see Reinette? Why couldn't the Doctor travel back a matter of minutes to save Adric?

Well Reinette made at least some sense given the rules they'd set out because he knew for a fact he'd never visited her after he jumped on the TARDIS, but for Amy and Rory all we have is a gravestone. That tells him nothing but the gravestone is there. There doesn't even have to be bodies in there. Or if there are he could have brought them back there in their 80s and let them live their last few years there. The fact the gravestone is there means nothing at all in the life they had.

When it comes to Adric, well that much is obvious. He wanted the little prick to die.

How do we know for a fact he never visited Reinette? Her letter? What does that prove? As I said upthread I can easily visualise Reinette and the 11th/12th/13th Doctor sitting down together to write it!

Her letter and her husband saying that she died waiting for him. Though I guess that's not "fact" but it's much closer than a name on a gravestone.

 

[Starkers]

I guess, though she could just be sneaking out behind the King's back...

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Or the Doctor has an innate sense of time and he just knows these things.

 

[Starkers]

Or the Doctor has an innate sense of time and he just knows these things.

Which is, rightly or wrongly, about the only thing that makes sense when you're dealing with a man who has a time machine.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Or the Doctor has an innate sense of time and he just knows these things.

Which is, rightly or wrongly, about the only thing that makes sense when you're dealing with a man who has a time machine.

Probably, but it's such a cop out. Basically it's just saying "or it only matters what the writer wants to do." which it is, but it also leads to unsatisfying stories. At least for me.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

How do we know for a fact he never visited Reinette? Her letter? What does that prove? As I said upthread I can easily visualise Reinette and the 11th/12th/13th Doctor sitting down together to write it!

Do we know it for a fact? No. We only have the letter to go by.

But I think it lessens the emotional impact of the story to introduce a timey-wimey out as a way of getting around the story's ending. The point of the story was that Reinette was on the Slow Path while the Doctor wasn't. Stripping that away for the Doctor to come back for her doesn't make much sense.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Probably, but it's such a cop out. Basically it's just saying "or it only matters what the writer wants to do." which it is, but it also leads to unsatisfying stories. At least for me.

You can write time travel stories with a rigid set of rules, but you won't end up with anything that looks or feels like Doctor Who.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Probably, but it's such a cop out. Basically it's just saying "or it only matters what the writer wants to do." which it is, but it also leads to unsatisfying stories. At least for me.

You can write time travel stories with a rigid set of rules, but you won't end up with anything that looks or feels like Doctor Who.

Don't need hard and fast rules, just this ending feels so unsatisfying when they've already had 3 decent jumping off points in their relationship with the Doctor that were more satisfying and just the week before they had another opportunity to call it a day in a way that would have left them in a good place without any of this convoluted nonsense.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Don't need hard and fast rules, just this ending feels so unsatisfying when they've already had 3 decent jumping off points in their relationship with the Doctor that were more satisfying and just the week before they had another opportunity to call it a day in a way that would have left them in a good place without any of this convoluted nonsense.

Alright but then you just end up with a value judgment. Me, I didn't think it was "convoluted nonsense" and I thought this ending was satisfying.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Don't need hard and fast rules, just this ending feels so unsatisfying when they've already had 3 decent jumping off points in their relationship with the Doctor that were more satisfying and just the week before they had another opportunity to call it a day in a way that would have left them in a good place without any of this convoluted nonsense.

Alright but then you just end up with a value judgment. Me, I didn't think it was "convoluted nonsense" and I thought this ending was satisfying.

Fair enough. I just think that I've been left unconvinced by much of series 6 and 7, so these kinds of twists and turns that amount to nothing have left me jaded and unwilling to suspend disbelief enough to enjoy them as written. My score for this half series would be 2 decent, 1 good, and 2 that bugged me too much to let me really enjoy them at all.