725m Enterprise

[rodsmale84]

Hello. I just wanted to throw my hat into an argument that’s been beaten to death worse then a dead horse. That argument being the size of the new Enterprise. Well to me, there is no more argument, the Enterprise is 725m, or 2379ft. To me, the only time the Enterprise ever looked smaller then this was the construction scene. In every other scene, she’s a lot bigger. Now I heard all the other sizes being thrown around by the various parties involved, but I for one am glad they seemed to have settled on a number I can agree with. I even went so far as to take an image of the new Enterprise (credit to SURICATA) and modify using MS Paint so that it was 2379 pixels in length. So each pixel would equal 1 square foot. I then added a few “people” standing on the hull in various places. With the people being 6 pixels / 6 ft in height, everything seemed to match up pretty well. The Bridge view screen would be about the right height, the shuttle bay would be about the right size (note the shuttles I also added), even the docking hatches don’t seem to huge. So yeah, long story short, in my none professional opinion, the new U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701, IS 725 meters long. Case closed.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/2b342c80437261

 

[Captain Rob]

Maybe they could open the next movie with two guys in space suits with a really, really long tape measure.
Spacesuit guy number 1: "Damned, I lost the bet by two feet."
Spacesuit guy number 2: "Bet? What bet? I thought we were ordered to do this?"

 

[F. King Daniel]

The CG of the Enterprise was scaled at around 725m long (or thereabouts - "whatever looked good in the shot" to quote some guy at ILM). The fuss is because it was designed smaller, at 366m then bumped up to fit the bridge window, brewery engine room, bridge deck (there's a whole deck behind it now) and hanger deck, none of which could fit on a smaller vessel.

Some people get upset at saucer rim and neck windows the same size as the one on the bridge (btw, you can actually see tiny people at the giant windows when Kirk's pod is launched to Delta Vega)

The weird thing about the Iowa shipyard scene is that although the ship is smaller in it, the people you see wouldn't actually fit on any of the exposed decks. "Wrong" size or not, that is an amazing shot.

Others think 725m looks wrong on a size-comparison chart of ships. I'm used to it, and the 457m Kelvin, on mine!

Others, of course, are in the "I'm ignoring everything I see in the film and are saying it's smaller because the old one was" camp

 

[F. King Daniel]

Almost forgot: At various stages of production the size of the ship changed again and again - 1200m in an early chart in the "Star Trek - Art of the Movie" book!

The "Experience the Enterprise" site said the Enterprise is 2500' long, which is a little more than the 725m. It gave a crew of 1100.

There's a list of all the quoted sizes of the ship at Memory Alpha. The only published, licenced products giving the size of the Enterprise (the art book and the bluray) both say 725m, so that's the final, official number. Presumably

It would be fascinating to get a scene-by-scene breakdown from ILM telling the exact size of the CG models in each shot.

 

[Captain Rob]

Maybe they could open the next movie with two guys in space suits with a really, really long tape measure.
Spacesuit guy number 1: "Damned, I lost the bet by two feet."
Spacesuit guy number 2: "Bet? What bet? I thought we were ordered to do this?"

Spacesuit guy number 1: "Crap, I got the wrong tape measure. We're supposed to do it in meters. Let me get the right one so we can measure it again."
Spacesuit guy number 2: "I'm going to Engineering for a beer."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Should be noted (and already has been by smarter people than me) that scaling/interior inconsistencies are nothing new in Trek. Most famous and best known is the Defiant, only slightly better known is the highly variable sizes of the Klingon Bird of Prey despite the same model being used in every shot. Even more bizzare is the Enterprise-D shuttle and cargo bays whose inner doors do not match any external feature on the entire ship.

Just sayin: stranger things have happened.

 

[SoM]

Even further back, and despite both being 1:1 (i.e., no camera trickery involved), the TOS shuttle interior was far larger than the exterior mock-up.

 

[Captain Rob]

So instead of adjusting the ship to fit the sets; we adjust the sets to fit the ship?
Too controversial. Nobody will buy it.

Actually I would.

 

[Timo]

In the case of the new NCC-1701, there's no need to adjust the sets, though. At least in theory, everything we saw should fit quite nicely inside a 725 meter ship - even the immense shuttlebay!

The problems aren't with interior vs. exterior here, but with exterior vs. exterior. That is, if the ship is that large, then the Iowa construction scene is problematic (but not all that crucial) - and all the other Starfleet ships are portrayed as being either as big as NCC-1701, or then bigger.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I've said this on another thread (you heard this from me there, Timo ), but it's worth repeating here:

In the case of bigger Federation ships like the Kelvin, the Kelvin Kitbash Fleet and the Enterprise, think of it like this: The USS Voyager can to everything the Enterprise-D can, yet is a fraction of the size. In the same way, there could be ships bigger than the prime-1701, yet have the same capibilities. We just haven't seen them until now.
Like how the Remans cropped up out of the blue in Nemesis.

 

[T'Girl]

In the same way, there could be ships bigger than the prime-1701, yet have the same capabilities.

Might be interesting to question exactly why the ST Eleven Enterprise is as large as it is. It could be that the new Enterprise engines, weapons and other systems are much less efficient that the similar systems in Starfleet vessels from the prime universe. The alternate (JJ-verse) universe's Starfleet might be building their ships at that size because they have no choice in the matter.

It would seem pretty obvious that the engines work (at least slightly) differently, the warp effect making it so that that occupants can't see the stars. The sensors are lesser and maybe bulkier, unable to scan the vessels in Vulcan orbit, something Kirk's Enterprise in the prime universe would have done with no problem. Pike did seem to find anything unusual about it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

"Not seeing the stars" at warp is because a new special effect was used, nothing more, nothing less. If anything getting to Vulcan in three minuites means the ship's a lot faster (but that's another discussion)

The inability to scan ships in Vulcan orbit is because of Nero's drilling beam, which blocks sensors, subspace communications and transporters.

Since the USS Kelvin was gigantic too, what should be asked is "what happened in Prime Trek between 2233 and 2245 to make them compact their ships"?

I think the size of the ship is because they could afford bigger sets and used the beer brewery. In-universe? I personally like to think the huge ships like the Kelvin and Newton co-existed with the TOS connie the same as the Enterprise-D and Voyager. If they can reverse-engineer Remans into the continuity they can do it with giant starships, too.

 

[blssdwlf]

^^ This is all assuming that ST XI's Kelvin is from the original timeline and everything shrunk going forward which it doesn't appear to be.

The sensors in ST XI are a little different but the drilling beam only blocks comm and transporters but not the sensors. The sensors do appear not to be able to detect an incoming ship from warp (Narada didn't see Enterprise until she dropped out of warp and Enterprise didn't see the cluster of destroyed ships prior to dropout.)

SPOCK: Captain, the Romulan ship has lowered some kind of high energy pulse device into the Vulcan atmosphere. It's signal appears to be blocking our communications and transporter abilities.

The only workable in-universe explanation is that we're already dealing with a Star Trek Multiverse where the people and some of the "look" in ST XI is similar to TOS Star Trek but it is a different universe and "a Spock from another universe and timeline" fell into it. This Spock seems to know different technological breakthroughs (like transporter from planet to ship in warp and making it work in this particular no-visible-sensor-in-warp universe) which could put him from yet another universe, IMO.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Let's not get into the "is it the same universe" thing here too (there are two or three threads concurrently elsewhere). Similar arguments against STXI Spock being TOS Spock can be used to "prove" TOS is set in set least six alternate realities, let alone any of the other spin-offs. It also utterly defeats the object of not only Nimoy's cameo, but the story in general.

If sensors don't work at warp, how did Kirk and Scotty beam to the Enterprise which was travelling at warp speed?

How did Ayel know "seven Federation vessels are on their way"?

It doesn't hold up. It makes much more sense that what blocked comunications and transporters also blocked sensors. All three systems are linked.

Besides, the offical line from TPTB is that Old Spock is from the Prime (TOS etc) universe, and that the alternate universe splits off frim TOS in 2233. Licenced products like books, games (Star Trek Online) and comics (Countdown) are all required to follow that storyline.

 

[blssdwlf]

Let's not get into the "is it the same universe" thing here too (there are two or three threads concurrently elsewhere). Similar arguments against STXI Spock being TOS Spock can be used to "prove" TOS is set in set least six alternate realities, let alone any of the other spin-offs. It also utterly defeats the object of not only Nimoy's cameo, but the story in general.

Well if you're willing to accept at least 6 different realities in TOS (not counting the 1000's seen in TNG) then why fight the idea that these guys in ST:XI are from a different reality other than you want to believe that Spock is from TOS?

If sensors don't work at warp, how did Kirk and Scotty beam to the Enterprise which was travelling at warp speed?

SCOTT: The notion of transwarp beaming is like, trying to hit a bullet with a smaller bullet whilst wearing a blindfold, riding a horse. What's that?
SPOCK PRIME: Your equation for achieving transwarp beaming.

Note that Scotty seems concerned about not being able to see where he is going and Spock boils it down to just an equation. That's a plus for no sensors at warp and everything being a calculation ala hyperspace jumps from Star Wars.

How did Ayel know "seven Federation vessels are on their way"?

The same way he knew that the Enterprise is on its way more than likely. Why was he surprised when the Enterprise showed up?

 

[F. King Daniel]

You misunderstand. I'm not willing to accept six realities in TOS, I was pointing out that if you explain away changed premises and continuity errors in STXI that way, you'd have to do the same with the similar botches in TOS (and other Treks), making a right mess of things.

I don't buy the Scotty line as evidence of sensor-blindness at warp. I saw it as the difficulty of targeting and hitting an object moving away from you at FTL speed. Remember in TOS beaming within a ship was considered dangerous. Adding FTL movement would make things much, much more so.

Nero was suprised Enterprise showed up because it was the Enterprise - Spock's ship. He saw another Spock for his little show.

 

[T'Girl]

If sensors don't work at warp, how did Kirk and Scotty beam to the Enterprise which was travelling at warp speed?

Well, the transporter sensors on Delta Vega were not moving at warp, were they?

 

[blssdwlf]

You misunderstand. I'm not willing to accept six realities in TOS, I was pointing out that if you explain away changed premises and continuity errors in STXI that way, you'd have to do the same with the similar botches in TOS (and other Treks), making a right mess of things.

I don't mind if it's less of a headache for me In my opinion (and by no means do you need to adhere to it) the only way to explain the "similar botches" in ST:XI is via alternate realities. But if you do force TOS and Prime to co-exist, then expect to deal with the botches

I don't buy the Scotty line as evidence of sensor-blindness at warp. I saw it as the difficulty of targeting and hitting an object moving away from you at FTL speed.

I saw it differently as Scotty not having the ability to aim at the Enterprise since he was effectively "blindfolded" as said in the dialogue. They knew the last course and everything was based on the equation from Spock. Since jjTrek seems to suggest that these "warps" were more like hyperspace jumps, then the numbers would work out. But since you don't buy Scotty's line, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nero was suprised Enterprise showed up because it was the Enterprise - Spock's ship.

Check the movie again then. Enterprise drops out of warp, scrapes a hull and then gets spotted by one of the Romulan crewmembers. It is not because they saw the Enterprise coming inbound from warp.

Speaking of Spock's ship... manufactured on Stardate 2387? By TNG the range of stardates was in the 44000's. You would've thought he might have grabbed a newer ship if he was from the TOS timeline, not something from the 5-year mission

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In the same way, there could be ships bigger than the prime-1701, yet have the same capabilities.

Might be interesting to question exactly why the ST Eleven Enterprise is as large as it is. It could be that the new Enterprise engines, weapons and other systems are much less efficient that the similar systems in Starfleet vessels from the prime universe. The alternate (JJ-verse) universe's Starfleet might be building their ships at that size because they have no choice in the matter.

I agree with the earlier sentiment that Starfleet probably ALWAYS built ships that size and we just plain didn't get to see them until much later. Some of the ships in the Enterprise fleet were similar in size to conventional TOS era designs; two seemed similar in size to the Reliant at least.

It would seem pretty obvious that the engines work (at least slightly) differently, the warp effect making it so that that occupants can't see the stars.

That's just the new special effects. Every new movie series/era has its own unique effect; TMP through TUC had the "rainbow streak" effect with stars zipping by, TNG onwards had the "Flash-boom" effect with highly distorted stars zipping by. This is a new version that is still, fundamentally, "warp speed."

The sensors are lesser and maybe bulkier, unable to scan the vessels in Vulcan orbit, something Kirk's Enterprise in the prime universe would have done with no problem.

What makes you say that, when even Enterprise-D lacked this ability in Best of Both Worlds? Actually, it seems that Enterprise couldn't even know for sure that the fleet was still there until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp, and didn't know they'd all been destroyed until they were in visual range.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Check the movie again then. Enterprise drops out of warp, scrapes a hull and then gets spotted by one of the Romulan crewmembers. It is not because they saw the Enterprise coming inbound from warp.

Except much earlier than that, Nero is told by Ayel "Seven Federation ships are on their way." Enterprise was the last of this group, eighth in line, and therefore somehow didn't show up on Narada's sensors.

So later when Enterprise emerges from the debris field we get "Captain there's another ship coming in!" and Nero's sort of dismissive response, "Destroy it too."

I think "surprised" is a little generous, just that his sensors miscounted the number of ships they detected on approach. Proof, once again, that it's better to be lucky than skilled.