6.5x08 Let's Kill Hitler (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)

[Checkmate]

Wow, talk about using minor nitpicks to rationalize an irrational hatred of something.

I thought this episode was great. It had a lot of funny lines ("Well, I was on my way to this gay gypsy Bar Mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought, 'gosh, the Third Reich is a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill the Fuhrer.' Who's with me?"), answered a ton of questions, and -- aside from the never-heard-of-Mels bit -- it even made a lot of sense all around. I can even easily forgive the Mels bit because it served the purpose of allowing Rory and Amy to have spent years and years with their daughter even if they didn't realize it at the time. I just hope Mels and Amy didn't do any 'experimenting' together. That'd haven been pretty creepy.

The people raging over it completely baffle me. The only "major" problems in the episode (such as no one seeing the gaping hole in Hitler's office or no one coming in to raid the restaurant after Melody cleared it out) were so very minor and largely irrelevant to the actual story being told... and that story was an explanation of River's first meeting with the Doctor. It had fuck-all to do with Hitler or Nazi Germany. That was just a colorful backdrop and a very common first pick for someone to choose if they had access to a time machine.

Also, it's going to be the Tesserlact (or however you spell it) that dies at the lake. They were so very nice to abandon it like that, afterall. And it is likely where the Doctor and the TARDIS is at during that scene.

 

[Brent]

I wish people could just sit back, be entertained, enjoy the episode, and have fun. So many people have to nitpick everything and take the fun out of it.

Can't people just enjoy stuff anymore

I enjoyed the ep, great stuff.

 

[Professor Zoom]

But to cherrypick criticisms for the present while having rose-tinted glasses for the past is dishonest.

Sometimes, that is the very heart of fandom. Nostalgia will almost always win out for some.

But, at the same time, if someone doesn't like it, they don't like it. It's not the end of the world.

 

[Shazam!]

I wish people could just sit back, be entertained, enjoy the episode, and have fun. So many people have to nitpick everything and take the fun out of it.

Can't people just enjoy stuff anymore

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5171045&postcount=60Yeah

 

[David cgc]

I just hope Mels and Amy didn't do any 'experimenting' together. That'd haven been pretty creepy.

I'm sure they didn't. "Time" and "Space" didn't show Amy was bi-curious, they showed she was Pond-curious.

Plus, weird incest stuff is Torchwood's bag.

Anyway, did anyone else laugh out loud when the Doctor explained that the console room not allowing weapons to work because of "temporal grace" had been a clever (yet utterly transparent) lie the whole time?

 

[Shazam!]

did anyone else laugh out loud when the Doctor explained that the console room not allowing weapons to work because of "temporal grace" had been a clever (yet utterly transparent) lie the whole time?

There were plenty of instances in the classic series of weapons being fired in the TARDIS. It's either a lie, broken, or turned off. We'll never know.

 

[The Doctor]

I just hope Mels and Amy didn't do any 'experimenting' together. That'd haven been pretty creepy.

I'm sure they didn't. "Time" and "Space" didn't show Amy was bi-curious, they showed she was Pond-curious.

Plus, weird incest stuff is Torchwood's bag.

Anyway, did anyone else laugh out loud when the Doctor explained that the console room not allowing weapons to work because of "temporal grace" had been a clever (yet utterly transparent) lie the whole time?

I loved the 'temporal grace' bit, a real laugh out loud moment and a well-deserved poke at past Who.

 

[Brent]

I'm going with "it's broken" as are lots of things on the old TARDIS.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Temporal Grace was mentioned as early as hand of fear, but this is from the arc of infinity after Tegan bogged off and it was just Nyssa (who might be as long lived as the Doctor or Romana) were alone together where their might have been centuries between episodes...

DOCTOR: Perfect.
NYSSA: We have an audio system, but nothing to listen to.
DOCTOR: And now we have nothing to look at. Couldn't be better. Peace and quiet is just what the doctor ordered.
NYSSA: Doctor? There are many other repairs to do.
DOCTOR: Well, there's nothing urgent, is there?
NYSSA: The navigational system? That must be faulty. We never seem to arrive where we intend.
DOCTOR: No. Well, you see, ever since the Cybermen damaged the console
NYSSA: And that's another thing. The Tardis used to be in a state of temporal grace, you said. Guns couldn't be fired.
DOCTOR: Yes. Well, nobody's perfect.

Broken, or a really really old lie?

 

[The Wormhole]

Pretty underwhelming to be honest. Was there a reason beyond being an attention-grabbing WTF moment that this episode was titled "Let's Kill Hitler"? Hitler is pretty much forgotten about after Mels regenerates into River and being set in Nazi Germany isn't relevant to the plot at all. It could have been set anywhere, anywhen with any evil tyrant. A more appropriate title would have been "River Song Begins."

I'm not even going to bother complaining about conviently retconning Mels into Amy and Rory's backstories as a previously undheard of best friend from childhood, as I think Moffat intentionally retconned her in as a joke. Still, one has to wonder, given how often and how seriously Mels always got into trouble, didn't anyone ever question where her parents were?

And isn't River basically a walking paradox? After all, she only exists because she influenced her parents to hook up, and she's named after herself for fuck's sake.

I am seriously getting tired of watching main characters die on this show. The Doctor is once again killed, apparentally permanently (again) only to be resurrected by River giving up all her remaining regenerations. This makes the first time Nu Who itself has made any referance to there being a limit to regenerations. Though I noticed they didn't say if this is the traditional 12 regnerations or RTD's 507 regenerations.

But getting back to my point, watching main characters constantly die and get resurrected is getting tiresome. Especially since the preview for next week's seems to indicate Rory is going to die again.

For a guy who likes to trash talk Star Trek, Moffat sure does love sticking the traditional Trek-style bridge and crew in his episodes, as that's what the control room of the shapeshifting android thing basically is.

And finally, after the Doctor instructs the TARDIS to show him someone who's life he hasn't screwed up we see child Amelia Pond. I'm pretty sure she counts as having her life screwed up by the Doctor.

While I wouldn't call this a particularly bad episode, this is not one of Moffat's best by a long show.

 

[Shazam!]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

 

[DS9Continuing]

A more appropriate title would have been "River Song Begins."

Except that that's completely artless and the kind of dumb, on-the-nose title Enterprise would have used, plus it spoils the whole plot of the episode which, in case you forgot, was intended as a surprise. I've already explained the reasons for the "Let's Kill Hitler" title - it's a metaphor.

And isn't River basically a walking paradox? After all, she only exists because she influenced her parents to hook up, and she's named after herself for fuck's sake.

Of course she's a paradox. This is a Moffat story. That's called "science fiction."

For a guy who likes to trash talk Star Trek, Moffat sure does love sticking the traditional Trek-style bridge and crew in his episodes, as that's what the control room of the shapeshifting android thing basically is.

Which he's done TWO TIMES. Out of the more than 30 episodes he's written/produced. Jesus fucking Christ, people.

.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

The TARDIS's Dimensions are relative to all other dimensions in space, as well as time.

Besides the compression field would have helped, and I don't remember anyone complaining during Carnival of Monsters or Planet of the Giants?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Anyone keeping track of The Doctor's Rules?

Rule 734:Never keep a note of rules.

 

[The Wormhole]

A more appropriate title would have been "River Song Begins."

Except that that's completely artless and the kind of dumb, on-the-nose title Enterprise would have used, plus it spoils the whole plot of the episode which, in case you forgot, was intended as a surprise.

Do you consider Batman Begins to be an artless, dumb, on-the-nose Enterprise style title?

Still, I have to disagree with that assessment. Had this been an Enterprise-style title it would have been something simple like "Mels" or perhaps "Assassin."

 

[Cutter John]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

For a machine that can hop between universes and tow planets, shrinking to half an inch tall should be a doddle.

 

[Yminale]

The problem with this episode is that everything felt rushed. Having characters come from nowhere is a Moff specialty (River is THE example) but in the case of "Mel" It made no sense since we know about Amy's and Rory's history together (the fact that she wasn't at the wedding was a cute throwaway line but still a major plot hole). Making "Mel/pre-River" psychotic didn't help things either.

The sad thing is that "Let's Killer Hitler" could have been a great story WITHOUT "Mel". The idea of the Doctor stopping overzealous time-cops from punishing Hitler is a great idea in itself.

 

[Gov Kodos]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

For a machine that can hop between universes and tow planets, shrinking to half an inch tall should be a doddle.

Especially one that's bigger on the inside than the outside. Changing size should be rather simple for such a device.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The problem with this episode is that everything felt rushed. Having characters come from nowhere is a Moff specialty (River is THE example) but in the case of "Mel" It made no sense since we know about Amy's and Rory's history together (the fact that she wasn't at the wedding was a cute throwaway line but still a major plot hole). Making "Mel/pre-River" psychotic didn't help things either.

The sad thing is that "Let's Killer Hitler" could have been a great story WITHOUT "Mel". The idea of the Doctor stopping overzealous time-cops from punishing Hitler is a great idea in itself.

She might have been in jail at the time of the wedding, or River might have been around the wedding keeping her earlier self away, or just another time travel paradox that Moffat seems to love using in the show. I prefer the rushed and done to the dragging on River Song arc. Like Hartnel's Doctor, her appeal was the complete mystery of the woman. As we went along only Kingston's acting kept the character enjoyable for me as the mystery and teases had long ago worn thin.

 

[Brent]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

The chameleon circuit would be capable of this, since it is able to change not only the outward appearance, but also the dimensions and size.