430 crew?

[Pauln6]

Yup, we know they're not all officers. We have enlisted ranks mentioned, enlisted crew uniforms in the movies and of course Chief O'Brien.

By my reckinging ships need:

Captain, XO (who may or may not also hold another position), CScO, CMO, CEO, & CSeO. Presumably they have have one crewman for each shift so 3 helmsmen, 3 navigators, 3 Comms Officers, 2 more doctors, 4 engineering officers (I've assumed that engineering is the most populous and important department), 2 more security officers and an assistant CEO. The chief nurse seems to be an officer, although not all nursing staff need be. So that's 25, but then we also have junior science officers, so it looks like the Enterprise does have a lot more officers than a modern day vessel. Too many chiefs and not enough indians if you ask me!

Don't overestimate the amount of automation though. The Enterprise still had chefs, janitors, and staff to man hydroponics.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Which kinda stands to reason. Future tech means more stuff is automated, so there's less need for people to do the grunt work. So at the very least, it seems the ratio of officers to enlisted would be higher.

There were certainly enlisted people in TOS, though -- plenty of characters called "Yeoman" or "Crewman" or "Specialist" or "Technician." I think Roddenberry's "They're all officers" idea was one of the many revisionist ideas he developed about Trek later in life.

I think it was in the book The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry (written during Trek's second season) that we get the quote:

"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is only semimilitary. The 'enlisted men' category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualifed astronaut, therefore an officer."

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yup, we know they're not all officers. We have enlisted ranks mentioned, enlisted crew uniforms in the movies and of course Chief O'Brien.

None of which have anything to do with the original TV series - O'Brien is a century and twenty years off.

Roddenberry, per the quotation above, said that everyone aboard the ship in TOS was an officer. The closest thing to an enlisted reference was the use of the term "chief" to refer to some characters, who in some cases were seen to be wearing officer's rank.

 

[scotpens]

Which kinda stands to reason. Future tech means more stuff is automated, so there's less need for people to do the grunt work. So at the very least, it seems the ratio of officers to enlisted would be higher.

There were certainly enlisted people in TOS, though -- plenty of characters called "Yeoman" or "Crewman" or "Specialist" or "Technician." I think Roddenberry's "They're all officers" idea was one of the many revisionist ideas he developed about Trek later in life.

I think it was in the book The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry (written during Trek's second season) that we get the quote:

"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is only semimilitary. The 'enlisted men' category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualifed astronaut, therefore an officer."

That quote and its source are correct. TMOST was published while Trek TOS was still in production. So, rather than a later revision on G.R.'s part, the "all officers" thing was an early concept that the writers didn't pay much attention to, and eventually, especially in the post-TOS shows, got dropped altogether. Kind of like the way they were supposed to use the metric system, but kept giving measurements in miles.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That quote and its source are correct. TMOST was published while Trek TOS was still in production. So, rather than a later revision on G.R.'s part, the "all officers" thing was an early concept that the writers didn't pay much attention to, and eventually got dropped altogether. Kind of like the way they were supposed to use the metric system, but kept giving measurements in miles.

Not really. The body of TMOST was completed at about the time of the production wrap of the second year of the series, with a final chapter written after the third season renewal. There's no evidence that the "no enlisted" rule was either a "late revision" or "early concept," but rather something that Roddenberry insisted upon despite the fact that it involved what would certainly appear to be inconsistencies in the show's milieu - just as he, as the final authority, would insist until the end of his life that Starfleet was not military (and it was never "no longer military" in his words, just "not military").

The internal evidence of TOS is self-contradictory and so no help. Since GR said there were no enlisted and nothing about the series provided any guidance as to what ranks other than officer ranks might exist, it's moot.

 

[Mr. Mugato]

Yup, we know they're not all officers. We have enlisted ranks mentioned, enlisted crew uniforms in the movies and of course Chief O'Brien.

None of which have anything to do with the original TV series - O'Brien is a century and twenty years off.

Roddenberry, per the quotation above, said that everyone aboard the ship in TOS was an officer. The closest thing to an enlisted reference was the use of the term "chief" to refer to some characters, who in some cases were seen to be wearing officer's rank.

Well, I don't know about the actual TOS universe, but the TOS Mirror Universe certainly has officers.

In Mirror, Mirror, when Chekov tries to assassinate Kirk; Chekov's henchman who turns on him and help Kirk says "Chekov was going to make me a CHIEF, you could make me an officer".

 

[scotpens]

. . . Don't overestimate the amount of automation though. The Enterprise still had chefs, janitors, and staff to man hydroponics.

According to The Making of Star Trek, the Enterprise relies on sophisticated food preservation and storage technology. "Hydroponic food growing is unnecessary and would use a disproportionate amount of manpower. There are, of course, hydroponics tanks aboard that are part of the botany laboratories." I'm quoting from memory here, so I may be off by a word or two.

And don't forget, the ship needed a seamstress or tailor to repair all of Kirk's torn shirts!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, I don't know about the actual TOS universe, but the TOS Mirror Universe certainly has officers.

In Mirror, Mirror, when Chekov tries to assassinate Kirk; Chekov's henchman who turns on him and help Kirk says "Chekov was going to make me a CHIEF, you could make me an officer".

Interestingly enough, in Blish's short story adaptation of "Mirror, Mirror" he describes Kirk as noticing the enlisted men as something different from his own vessel. Does anyone have a copy of the final shooting script for the episode? Blish worked primarily from scripts and other reference material, and it would be interesting to see if the presence of enlisted men was a script note that he elaborated upon - if not, it's a remarkable that he should have come up with it, either as a coincidence on his or as a detailed observation based on other references.

 

[Mr. Mugato]

Ooopps, I obviously meant to say the TOS Mirror Universe certainly has enlisted crewmen.

 

[scotpens]

Interestingly enough, in Blish's short story adaptation of "Mirror, Mirror" he describes Kirk as noticing the enlisted men as something different from his own vessel

IIRC, Blish describes the enlisted crew of the Imperial Enterprise as wearing fatigues that resemble the clothing of civilian workmen, rather than Starfleet uniforms. He also mentions that all of them salute Kirk as he passes by, and none seem surprised not to have the salute returned.

 

[T'Bonz]

LOL. God, who cares? It was only a TV show designed to get us to watch so that advertisers could sell junk to us!

I love the show, but sometimes, it gets over-analyzed to death.

 

[Christopher]

The internal evidence of TOS is self-contradictory and so no help. Since GR said there were no enlisted and nothing about the series provided any guidance as to what ranks other than officer ranks might exist, it's moot.

TOS depicts numerous characters with enlisted ratings:

Every yeoman ever.
CPO Garrison ("The Cage").
Crewmen Barnhart, Compton, Darnell, Green
Technician First Class Harrison; Technician Wilson.
Specialist Tomlinson (according to the Concordance, though Memory Alpha calls him a Lieutenant).

 

[Pauln6]

TMP has crew in jantorial uniforms and hydroponics uniforms or at least that is how the uniforms are described. Janice Rand has the insignia of a CPO and several other crewmen have the insignia of POs. Regardless of Roddenberry's original plan, that's not how the crew appears on screen.

 

[Tom]

LOL. God, who cares? It was only a TV show designed to get us to watch so that advertisers could sell junk to us!

I love the show, but sometimes, it gets over-analyzed to death.

The punch line is .. Get a life! LOL T'bonz will be guest starring on SNL in the near future.

 

[Shaw]

LOL. God, who cares? It was only a TV show designed to get us to watch so that advertisers could sell junk to us!

I love the show, but sometimes, it gets over-analyzed to death.

I know a lot of people love to knock down those of us who love to pick at the details, but I would ask that they consider this...

Star Trek is, at it's heart, entertainment. It may be entertaining to many to just watch the shows, but there are some of us who gain enjoyment and entertainment from playing with the details. It seems a little harsh to put down some people's chosen form of recreation just because it isn't what you like.

Think about all the people who look at you funny for liking Star Trek... you are doing the same thing to those of us who like the tech of Trek.

Please stop putting us down just because you don't share in our interests. It is a vast world and not everyone gets enjoyment in the same way, and putting people down for not being you isn't needed... and really shouldn't happen in a Trek forum of all places.

 

[Tom]

Shaw, T'bonz is joking (or is she.. ) we are all here because we love Star Trek and like talking about various elements of it.

 

[Shaw]

Shaw, T'bonz is joking (or is she.. ) we are all here because we love Star Trek and like talking about various elements of it.

Sure she was... and I'm sure Dennis was too when he said that this whole subject area attracts some obsessive time-wasters.

It was all said as a form of affection... right?

I mean what is a little put down among friends?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

LOL. God, who cares? It was only a TV show designed to get us to watch so that advertisers could sell junk to us!

I love the show, but sometimes, it gets over-analyzed to death.

I take the radical position that:

• There are a lot of contradictions in Star Trek
• Everything that's said or done in the shows counts
• The contradictions can't reasonably be reconciled
• Trying to do so is a waste of life.
  
  
  
  

 

[scotpens]

I take the radical position that:

• There are a lot of contradictions in Star Trek
• Everything that's said or done in the shows counts
• The contradictions can't reasonably be reconciled
• Trying to do so is a waste of life.

Blasphemy and heresy!

Trying to resolve the contradictions in Star Trek is the Crusader's search for the Holy Grail. It's the Muslim's pilgrimage to Mecca. It's the Buddhist's quest for nirvana. It's a mission, a calling, a mitzvah!

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

LOL. God, who cares? It was only a TV show designed to get us to watch so that advertisers could sell junk to us!

I love the show, but sometimes, it gets over-analyzed to death.

I take the radical position that:

• There are a lot of contradictions in Star Trek
• Everything that's said or done in the shows counts
• The contradictions can't reasonably be reconciled
• Trying to do so is a waste of life.
  
  
  
  

Hell, I've come to view each Trek production, or adventure, on its own terms without regard to canon, continuity, or contradictions. If it refers to something or other, fine. If it fits, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too.

Doesn't hinder my enjoyment one damn bit. My preference has always been: does it tell a good story. If so, then I could care less about canon, continuity, or contradictions. If it doesn't, still could care less.