2166 According to Spock
- Thread starter Saquist
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no the dialog in the episode certainly seems to imply that federation had no clue what the romulans were doing within.
it also seems to imply that the homeworlds were not that close to the zone.
as for the use of "earth" it has been retconned to mean the war happened before the federation.
and later in on we get more of founding time for the federation,
but ,really it had more to do with there was a lot roddenberry just hadnt thought through.
different things get thrown out until later on in the first season of tos the term federation comes about.( i am not sure but it is possible gene coon came up with it just like he came up with the klingons_)
the early mentioned united earth space probe agency gets retconned by fans into a pre federation organization (and in enterpise it becomes evidently the parent organization of starfleet).
the idea that starfleet existed pre federation and was rechartered after the federation founding can be said to come from a reference about section 31 in deep space nine.
back to bot..the zone.
it wasnt a wall but more a part of space with listening outposts set along designated lines of coordinates in space.
Earth Outpost Sector Z-6. One sector of many, the seven outpost stations shown on the screen are just the outposts in that one particular section. There is a vertical and horizontal grid of sectors, facing Romulan space. Total number of outposts could be in the thousands.
Admittedly it a two dimensional map, but there would seem to be dozens of stars in the Romulan area, in addition to ROMULUS and ROMII there are four other larger dots, regional capitals?
The Romulan commander's use of "Earthman" and "Earth commander" could be based upon monitored communications. The Enterprise listen in on the Romulans, the Romulans could have been returning the favor by listening in on Kirk talking to the outpost commander.
Saquist
Commodore
The purpose of a DMZ or neutral zone isn't to restrict a governments expansion it is to settle a dispute of territory in which no one gets the contested territory and armed ships are prohibited.
It also serves as a buffer zone.
The Neutral Zone seems to be less of a spherical cage holding the Romulans in and more of a barrier or buffer between Romulan and Federation space keeping the two seperated, nothing more. Other systems are mentioned in canon that exist on the other side of the zone and within Romulan space. The zone is an expansive patrolled region of space... but clearly the Romulan Empire rules a territory behind the zone rivaling the Federation. It's the Trek equivalent of the communist Iron Curtain, the Berlin Wall, the Great wall of China, the demilitarized zones of Vietnam and Korea and other "walls" and "zones" from throughout world history. I doubt the Romulans would agree to a treaty that traps them in a small enclosed area of space, no matter who "won" the war. The galaxy is big, big enough to give both sides room to expand on respective sides of the zone.
I think the idea of what the Neutral Zone was came from Larry Niven's "Known Space" series of books. There was one species called the Kzin who were defeated by humanity years ago and the humans totally dismantled their empire to the point that the Kzin were confined to their home system with only small police ships for a fleet.
Of course, like I said the idea of a neutral zone like that would be damn near impossible given how huge it would've had to have been.
And in WOK when Saavik is doing her Kobayashi Maru test, the Klingon Neutral Zone there is shown as spherical as well.
Of course, like I said the idea of a neutral zone like that would be damn near impossible given how huge it would've had to have been.
And in WOK when Saavik is doing her Kobayashi Maru test, the Klingon Neutral Zone there is shown as spherical as well.
And I'm sure "Known Space" was alleghorical for many historical events and wars that happened all thru time. A defeated society, if not completely absorbed, or destroyed, was restricted behind barriers without any world power or influence. Like what happened to the Native Americans, just as one example.
But this is not the Romulan scenario, they're empire wasn't dismantled, nor imprisioned to only a small sector of space or their own home system. The Romulan Empire was seemingly untouched, only seperated by the zone.
Incidentally, IIRC, there are no stars depicted within the RNZ itself - yet a comet with a tail is found in the region, indicating that a star indeed is nearby. The question then becomes, is the nearby star Romulus or Romii (in which case the RNZ is really small and really close to said stars), or one of the other, undesignated dots on that map?
Let's remember that in WWI and WWII, the Germans by their own account fought against the "Engländer", not against Great Britain or the Entente Powers or the Allies. In the German language, "England" was the proper expression for the frustratingly stubborn island-nation - yet any English printing of German commentary on that stubbornless would have the "England" or "Engländer" adjoined by a [sic] sign, because the English themselves would have none of that.
It's perfectly possible that the word translated as "Earth" is the correct expression for the UFP in the Romulan language - or that Romulan discourse refuses to acknowledge the existence of any sort of a coalition on the opposing side in that old war. That happens all the time: the US in the Cold War typically said "Russia" when formally the opponent was the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact, and the Soviets said "America" when the opponent was the United States or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
Now, that only eliminates half the dialogue references to Earth in "Balance of Terror". Our UFP heroes still consider those outposts "Earth Outposts". The remaining question then is, are there perhaps also "Vulcan Outposts" and "Andorian Outposts" elsewhere around the RNZ, like there were British, French, US and Soviet zones of control in what remained of Germany and Austria after WWII?
Timo Saloniemi
This one has bugged me if a bomb goes off in the vacuum of space how could it blow something up or knock it about?
Doesn’t a concussion wave need air to be part of the creation of it?
Things blow up and rip into pieces in space all the time. Nuclear explosions with concussive forces not only naturally occur in space, but create the universe itself. Super novas being the best example. When our sun explodes in a billion years, it will be the concussion wave that will destroy the Earth before the heat and radiation does. Any explosion is a release of energy. A rocket is a, non nuclear, ignition of fuel to create a controlled directional explosion that creates thrust and velocity. Rocket thrusters are how the Apollo spacecraft manuvered in space and made it's way to the moon, it's how the space shuttle changes it's trajectory, and sends satellites into higher or lower orbits. So, even in a vacuum, a man made nuclear device can absolutley have the desired concussive fury, and immense heat required to tear apart and destroy any other space faring object in it's wake. It's effect similar to that of a tiny exploding star and as damaging as any naturally explosive cosmic event.
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@Yug: The difference is that an exploding star actually has lots of matter to push around. A nuclear device doesn't. I'm sure the Enterprise would've still taken damage due to the fact that there is energy as a result of the detonation, but no fireball or shockwave. I'm not really familiar with the mechanics of this though.
@Timo: I would think Earth/Federation are synonymous. That is, they are outputs under Earth's jurisdiction, but Earth is a member of the Federation, thus they are technically Federation outposts as well. But given the context, it would be more appropriate to refer to them as Earth outputs.
@Timo: I would think Earth/Federation are synonymous. That is, they are outputs under Earth's jurisdiction, but Earth is a member of the Federation, thus they are technically Federation outposts as well. But given the context, it would be more appropriate to refer to them as Earth outputs.
The release of energy alone creates a shockwave. Still, there'd be a ton of gamma rays, beta particles (naked electrons), and neutrons emitted, enough to cause plenty of death and destruction to anything nearby. Enough to tear apart a starship on anything else, which would be, in itself, the matter to be "pushed around".
"Concussive force" is probally the wrong term as it deals specifically with sound waves I believe. Shockwave is more appropiate.
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That presupposes that the outposts were indeed founded by Earth alone, some time after the war. We don't know if that happened. It could just as well be that the outposts were founded by the Federation, or by the Coalition of Planets, or by the Great Entente of Civilized Cultures and Organizations, or whatever entity played the central role in that old Romulan War.
If so, we're left wondering why these outposts are called Earth Outposts. Perhaps the UFP, the COP, or the GECCO divided responsibility so that Earth got to do all the Outposts (or then at least the eight we saw in that episode), while Vulcan did all the sensor networks and Andor did all the siege robots.
We could just as well say that Earth fought the war all alone, without any allies. Spock mentions allies in "Balance of Terror", yes, but he could be referring to parties siding with the Romulans. Perhaps the Coalition of Planets was disbanded in disgust once the other members learned that Earth had brashly declared war on the Romulans?
Currently, all sorts of possibilities are open (except in the novels, which already venture into this time period and create their own interpretations). It remains to be seen if a future movie or TV show or other "canonical" medium will nail down the facts once and for all.
Timo Saloniemi
i agree with yug..
i see more as like the berlin wall.
or more so just a boundary between to vast spheres of power.
and just to make sure i checked the known space chronology.
the only kzin story at that time was the first warriors. the first conflict/contact story with the kzin.
soft weapon were we learn that several wars hasnt gotten the kzin very much comes later.
that we see just how soft the kzin have become is in ringworld.
and like i said earlier the whole "earth" stuff is because gene r. just didnt think some things through at first.
as to why it is..
it may be a matter of part of the treaty.. or as a honor if humans suffered the most with the confict that they become primary guardians.
or for all we know there may be numerous other outposts with some run by each of the members of the founding species.
as for earth ship..
heck it is possible not all the connies for other starfleet ships are built on earth.
some could be andorian chartered and built ect..
Saquist
Commodore
A nuclear explosion creates a energy wave in a vacuum. That wave would travel at the speed of light in all directions.
Only 5% of the explosion is high energy radiation. The greatest amount of energy is transfered thermally as we should all know a vacuum is the absolute poorest method for heat exchange. (Termal 35-45% of blast)
(To compare: lasers, evaporation and electromagnetic fields are used in combination to create Boze-Einstien Condensates)
The Blast which is 40-50% of the initial release is only transmitted by the atmosphere. It is a known fact that the HIGHER a nuclear bomb is detonated in the atmosphere the lower the blast because of less air to convert the energy into blast.
[The advent of the shielded torpedo in TNG would likely serve to convert that variable energy into one range of high energy radiation other wise photon torpedoes would likely be as little effective as nuclear detonations.
The Quantum torpedo is a shaped explosion not only resonating that release of energy but directing it into the target for the maximum effect.]
My Conclusion:
The explosion of a nuclear weapon in vacuum would likely vaporize the point of impact of an armored target. It might cause a hull breach depending on the thickness of that armor but the greatest majority of a energy would immediately escape into space.
It would cause heavy electromagnetic damage to computers and inputs.
Size of the detonation is a major issue.
This would be balanced with what a ship could logically and tactically hold in armory for the best effects which bring strike percentage into play. The more effective tracking is the lower the number of weapons on board and the higher the yeild of each weapon. The least effective tracking would require more weapons with smaller yields.
This would put Spock's comment of no quarter in perspective if the weapons were taking up a considerable amount of ship volume.
Wouldn't ships by that point be EMP-proof? The nuclear blast would destroy the vessel targeted if it was done faster than whatever point defense tech they had could counter it, but I don't think the EMP blast would affect the other ships in the group.
As for the ships being too small, take into mind that they may not have had the infrastructure to build ships as big as the TOS ENT by then and that things like their radio equipment and Warp Cores would be bigger too. So it would be more space for their equipment than for their missiles (which I doubt would be THAT big 200 years from now).
As for the ships being too small, take into mind that they may not have had the infrastructure to build ships as big as the TOS ENT by then and that things like their radio equipment and Warp Cores would be bigger too. So it would be more space for their equipment than for their missiles (which I doubt would be THAT big 200 years from now).
Saquist
Commodore
Could you really be EMP proof if you had to have external hard points like sensor high energy lasers and your warp engines which can't be insulated if you're going to get a warp field out so a ship definitely would have some weak points if it could shielded.
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