Spoilers 1st openly gay character.

[mswood]

Oh, I think it's equally as stupid. Nothing bugs me more than romance forced into someplace where it really doesn't belong, or is albeity not at all clever.

My problem with Sulu has nothing to do with discomfort over homosexuality, my issue is how forced it is, it's making a statement for the sake of it, not for the sake of good writing.

Simon Pegg had kind of a pathetic explanation,

"We could have introduced a new gay character, but he or she would have been primarily defined by their sexuality, seen as the ‘gay character’, rather than simply for who they are, and isn’t that tokenism?”"

Which, really, is only true if you're a bad writer writing a bad story, because it's painfully obvious that they used Takai, and the character, as tokenism.

So far there isn't anything "token" about Discovery's "gay" character. And I think a lot of people, especially those with a socially open mind, fear that making him into a token would ruin the point.

I actually loved the Sulu reveal in Beyond. Beyond featured several background extras, hooking up, checking out people they were attracted to, as well as having a fight (or breaking up), and they certainly could have shown a same sex example in that section. But while its great to see background representation, it's so much nicer to see (even if its lightly touched upon) when it's regular characters. We saw two examples of the "cast" in some form of relationship. Be it Uhura breaking it off from Spock, and eventually coming back together, to the Sulu moment. While the first got more screen time and shown more physical contact, a good part of that has to do with the JJ universe amping up Uhura's role in these three films as well as of course Spock being the 2nd lead.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Again so?

I don't think not having a character of "a" type doesn't mean it isn't progressive.

Yeah, it kind of does.

I think the idea that the orville did it 2 weeks earlier, makes it "better" socially than Discovery is a little strange of a concept.

Better in that one aspect.

I think it's a little much to expect Star Trek to cover every social cue imaginable "on time"

No, it's not.

It has a gay character, seemingly, a person who puts their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else, I don't even think it's odd that there wasn't a gay character up until the reboot. Like they didn't handle a plethora of other complicated scenarios that no one else was either.

It just seems like a weird benchmark.

It's benchmark the show set for it's self by claiming how progressive it is. As @Greg Cox said, it's been coasting on the "first interracial kiss" and having an Asian, an African and a Russian in the cast in the 1960's for decades. But even by 1960's standards they were only on the curve and not ahead of it. Being Progressive means progressing and even getting out ahead. Star Trek has failed on both accounts.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The old A'TP'ers would surely bristle at this obvious slighting of their constant rant against T/T all those years ago in the Ent forum. How soon we forget.

Was it because the producers were forcing a heterosexual couple on us or the fact that a lot of it was based on them rubbing each other down in the decon chamber? What about Kirk with any female guest star, Riker with any female guest star, Worf and Dax, Tom and Belanna, etc?

We haven't even seen this couple together and people are already complaining about it being "forced". It's a double standard and a pretty common one in our society.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Bottom line: STAR TREK needs more gay characters because we can't keep coasting on "the first interracial kiss" thing forever.

To be fair, Star Trek did have one of the first same-sex kisses. I think the bigger problem for Star Trek is that it really hasn't done anything to show normality behind same-sex relationships. The issue has always been tackled in off-beat, sci-fe kind of ways.

 

[Mysterion]

Bottom line: STAR TREK needs more gay characters because we can't keep coasting on "the first interracial kiss" thing forever.

Trek was ahead of the curve back in the sixties, but has fallen behind the average family sitcom on this front. Here's hoping DISCOVERY finally remedies that.

Damn straight! (if you'll pardon the expression )

Trek needs to be taking a lot more chances in its storytelling on a lot of fronts, and it's nice to finally see them having made past this hurdle. Finally.

 

[steam235]

Big thanks to everyone who pointed out that the work friend was just a friend. I'm very glad that the real relationship hasn't been shown yet.

 

[Awesome Possum]

To be fair, Star Trek did have one of the first same-sex kisses. I think the bigger problem for Star Trek is that it really hasn't done anything to show normality behind same-sex relationships. The issue has always been tackled in off-beat, sci-fe kind of ways.

For pure titillation and between two characters without any romantic feelings towards each other.

If Star Trek is supposed to show a better future for all of humanity, then it should include LGBTQ people as well. We're part of humanity as much as some of you would like to ignore us. If anything this relationship is too little, too late. This is like a Major League team hiring a black player now and acting like it's a major deal.

 

[Vger23]

For pure titillation and between two characters without any romantic feelings towards each other.

If Star Trek is supposed to show a better future for all of humanity, then it should include LGBTQ people as well. We're part of humanity as much as some of you would like to ignore us. If anything this relationship is too little, too late. This is like a Major League team hiring a black player now and acting like it's a major deal.

But, in fairness...as the old adage goes...'better late than never.' It would have been a conspicuous miss if there hadn't been some element represented in DSC.

And since one of the show runners is gay, I'm hoping it's a realistic and meaningful portrayal, and not just for the sake of doing it (after all this time, it should be more)!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

For pure titillation and between two characters without any romantic feelings towards each other.

Dax and Kahn were romantic.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

As a gay man, what bugs me most in any form of media is when ostensibly straight characters experiment with a LGBTI character only for it to end with the 'heartbroken gay/unrequited gay love trope. The Buffy season 8 comics have an example of this when Buffy hooks up with a lesbian vampire slayer named Satsu. Buffy never showed any inkling of being attracted to women during the series but she has sex with Satsu, because neediness. Satsu is in love with Buffy and ends up getting her heartbroken when Buffy tells her it was just a heat of the moment thing and she really isn't into women. It's just horrible writing and makes Buffy look terribly selfish and manipulative and Satsu ends up looking like a desperate, lovestruck doormat. There are no consequences for Buffy, but Satsu has to move to another country to get over her feelings.

As for forced romances between gay characters, I'll happily take some and put up with them considering how many forced straight romances i have had to endure.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Well, Im not sure I disagree that Star Trek was ever meant to be a handler of any and all social issues facing our current society. As far as I've ever seen while watching Trek was it was a science fiction show portraying a certain future, not taking on our social issues one by one but for the most part taking the "it aint no thang" approach. Thus I don't think it has any "responsibility" to them, and thus I never thought to judge Trek on it.

However stubborn I can be I am moved by many of the arguments. I'll try to keep an open mind to the idea as I watch the show. I certainly don't think it would hurt the show in any way, unless the writing was truly horrible ( think Wynona Earp )

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Dax and Kahn were romantic.

Technically, Dax was also an intergalactic transgender.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Technically, Dax was also an intergalactic transgender.

Yes, it was "sci-fied," but it was still a kiss between two people of the same sex, both in and out of character.

 

[Greg Cox]

Well, Im not sure I disagree that Star Trek was ever meant to be a handler of any and all social issues facing our current society. As far as I've ever seen while watching Trek was it was a science fiction show portraying a certain future, not taking on our social issues one by one but for the most part taking the "it aint no thang" approach. Thus I don't think it has any "responsibility" to them, and thus I never thought to judge Trek on it.

However stubborn I can be I am moved by many of the arguments. I'll try to keep an open mind to the idea as I watch the show. I certainly don't think it would hurt the show in any way, unless the writing was truly horrible ( think Wynona Earp )

I don't know. Again, TOS frequently tackled topical issues. You have the racism episode (which aired at the height of the Civil Rights struggle), the overpopulation episode, the thinly-disguised Viet Nam episode, the Yangs versus the Comms, etc. And the latter-day shows and movies often did the same. Hell, the fourth movie was about saving the whales, while the sixth movie was very thinly-disguised metaphor for glasnost and perestroika, right down to naming the Gorbachev character "Gorkon."

Dealing with topical social issues has always been part of Trek's purview.

(Then again, I love WYNONNA EARP. )

 

[Nerys Myk]

As far as I've ever seen while watching Trek was it was a science fiction show portraying a certain future, not taking on our social issues one by one but for the most part taking the "it aint no thang" approach. Thus I don't think it has any "responsibility" to them, and thus I never thought to judge Trek on it.

Are we talking about the same Star Trek? Because Star Trek built its brand on being a progressive show that addressed current social issues through the veil of Science Fiction.

 

[Awesome Possum]

But, in fairness...as the old adage goes...'better late than never.' It would have been a conspicuous miss if there hadn't been some element represented in DSC.

And since one of the show runners is gay, I'm hoping it's a realistic and meaningful portrayal, and not just for the sake of doing it (after all this time, it should be more)!

They shouldn't pat themselves on the back for being progressive. It would have been progressive in the 80s. It's standard now. Hell it's increasingly common for animated children's shows to have LGBTQ characters.

Dax and Kahn were romantic.

Not really. Dax was pretty well established as straight on the show.

Technically, Dax was also an intergalactic transgender.

She wasn't, not even close.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I don't know. Again, TOS frequently tackled topical issues. You have the racism episode (which aired at the height of the Civil Rights struggle), the overpopulation episode, the thinly-disguised Viet Nam episode, etc. And the latter-day shows and movies often did the same. Hell, the fourth movie was about saving the whales, while the sixth movie was very thinly-disguised metaphor for glasnost and perestroika, right down to naming the Gorbachev character "Gorkon."

Dealing with topical social issues has always been part of Trek's purview.

(Then again, I love WYNONNA EARP. )

But they didn't tackle ALL the issues, nor did I ever get the vibe that they set out to do so nor was it the "point",

that's what I'm getting at. I can't judge the show negatively for not hitting them all up, like they got a check list somewhere and are going down to hit "everything"

that's all.

And I truly dig Wynona Earp but I think officer haught is so poorly written. Not cause of the lesbian thing just... cause. I kinda feel about her like I feel about Felicity Smoak from Arrow,

too many superficial hot girl stereotypes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Do the symbionts even have a gender?

 

[Vger23]

They shouldn't pat themselves on the back for being progressive. It would have been progressive in the 80s. It's standard now. Hell it's increasingly common for animated children's shows to have LGBTQ characters.

Not really. Dax was pretty well established as straight on the show.

She wasn't, not even close.

I wasn't giving them permission to pat themselves on the back. I was merely acknowledging that the only thing more questionable than doing it at this late juncture would have been not doing it at all.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Are we talking about the same Star Trek? Because Star Trek built its brand on being a progressive show that addressed current social issues through the veil of Science Fiction.

Trek built it's brand on being a science fiction show, an excellent one. It happened to tackle contemporary social issues here and there but it was always science fiction first and foremost. Even many of the social issues they tackled were alien and barely touched contemporary. It certainly wasn't a cruise ship for social issues.