Was anyone else mildly disturbed by the guy's face poking out of the screen?
Spoilers 1st openly gay character.
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What do you mean "you people"?
Romance does serve a purpose. Romantic interactions can give insights into characters motivations or behaviors, what they are like "outside" of work is important. Constantly viewing a character at work can get pretty flat, especially professional types you might find among regimented scientists or military personnel. Interactions with romantic partners show different sides.
On the flip side, sometimes romance is used to showcase a steamy sex scene, or showcase something else that just doesn't seem to advance or be part of a story. The times Dana Scully had dates in X-Files weren't truly part of the story, but the obvious off putting we saw with Mulder to that did kinda showcase the space between the two, which was interesting.
Arrow being in love with every woman on that fricken show, is just... ugh.... so stupid.
So yeah from a writing standpoint it could be good or bad.
Oh, how I wished this were the case. I used to believe that as well … and then I started using the internet.
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But it was a part of the story, just as Spock and Uhura's relationship was part of the story. 50 years ago, one might as well have said "a black woman on the bridge of the Enterprise? Now they're just forcing this. It doesn't seem realistic."
If we waited for our current culture to make something seem more realistic, we'd be watching "Leave it to Beaver" reruns ad nauseam.
It's less "hurry up and put someone gay in there," and more "it's time that we represented everyone fairly in this movie about the future." So they did, and Sulu was an excellent choice, IMO.
For starters, the guy in the video call wasn't his boyfriend, and that was clear as day. And it's bloody ridiculous that everyone sees a gay guy with a male friend, and assumes they're lovers. Gay men can't just be friends with other men? Honestly, I'm writing this as a straight guy, and just really surprised at the assumptions people have jumped to from this episode.
It took Orville two episodes to give us a same-sex marriage.
Trek should be able to do better.
Trek should be able to do better.
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Firstly, as a shipper, I put almost EVERYONE together.
Secondly, this is probably how women feel every single day.
The problem is as I said, the way the system is stacked against LGBTQ relationships from the start.
Media is a powerful thing, to spend a century helping enforce heterosexual cisgender norm, there is no way to protray a relationship that isn't part of that without it standing out, that's deliberate.
To even be shown at all goes against a very carefully created status quo, and make people take notice. So there isn't a fair chance to have a gay relationship like Stamets on Discovery without a large reaction to it for being different.
So to argue that it shouldn't be done because it will cause some discomfort and stand out, well fuck that, force it then, because it's the only way it's going to happen.
Media is a powerful thing, to spend a century helping enforce heterosexual cisgender norm, there is no way to protray a relationship that isn't part of that without it standing out, that's deliberate.
To even be shown at all goes against a very carefully created status quo, and make people take notice. So there isn't a fair chance to have a gay relationship like Stamets on Discovery without a large reaction to it for being different.
So to argue that it shouldn't be done because it will cause some discomfort and stand out, well fuck that, force it then, because it's the only way it's going to happen.
I’ve been here a while Trek fans are pretty toxic like most geek culture, especially male dominated geek culture. I’ve seen a lot of blatant homophobia and transphobia over years here, it’s stopped by the mods but it’s still here.
I agree about Spock and Uhura, but they had real interactions that gave us more insight as to their characters and how it played into the show.
Sulu was just there to be gay IMO to tell trek fans "Look we're open to gay people"
I know I'm really nitpicking here but here is an example of where I think excellent writing using gay characters was both well written as well as germane.
Jeri Hogarth, the lesbian lawyer from Jessica Jones.
She is leaving her wife for another woman who works in her office. The interactions between the three of them really showcase different aspects of Jeri's character. Jeri's current wife, warning the new mistress about her character and honesty, and how it's tested when Jeri's wife tries to kill Jeri ( albeit at the behest of a mind controlling sociopath ).
Jeri's mistress kills Jeri's wife, and while in lockup, believing she would get the full weight and aid of Jeri's top notch lawyer skills, is dismayed by Jeri's distance, putting her career first as was warned by Jeri's wife.
Them being gay wasn't a "thing" but their relationship to the story was everything.
The fact that you’ve seen enough cis/het couples that you’re sick of it is a privilege. One that I don’t have.
I won't disagree but in my experience homophobia is everywhere.
I am hard pressed to find a lot of fans of a lot of shows where this doesn't exist, many women oriented shows sure, but comparing geek mediums from one to the other I just happened to find Star Trek fans more open to social questions more so than say, Star Wars fans,
Trek is a show that does deal in morality, where other sci fi franchises just deal in lasers and revenge. I tend to ignore internet idiots but I've had many thorough conversations on these topics with more trek fans than anywhere else.
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The relationship did something very important. While remaining connected to the overall story on an emotional level, especially for Sulu, it did acknowledge every single gay person in the audience and said "we know you exist, we welcome you in this world." That is an extraordinary and important message, especially for audiences in places where being gay is a crime.
Kirk was in love with a new woman every other week. All the crew of the E-D had romances of the week and there were at least three explicit main cast romantic pairings. All of these were heterosexual and all apart from one were cis. Even Beverly's bloody alien candle ghost thing was a white straight cis male because alien candle ghosts have the same heteronormative standards as everyone else in the Trek galaxy. I've never once seen anyone complain that Trek was forcing the presence of heterosexual romance. Just in this thread, no complaint at all about Spock/Uhura, but Sulu's 'just there to be gay'.
So it's a race? whoever gets to it first is better?
Either way I think the way Orville did it was perfect.
There was a social issue, that created a conflict that gave us deeper understanding between important crewmembers. Their disagreements, the scenes when they are together away from work. I thought it was top notch.
Well, I do disagree but I do so with respect.
Truth is if I could be you and just enjoy it, instead of being me and nitpick all the time I'd take it
Hey, The playboy thing just there to be there on TOS I thought was stupid. However, the irresponsible nature of it in JJ trek did showcase a part of his personality that would continue to be a problem for Kirk, his utter impulsiveness.
Spock / Uhura actually had interactions that showed important aspects of their character, and those character traits actually were presented throughout the film
Sulu was yes, sadly, just there to be gay. If one were to research the details behind that it's obvious they just tried so desperately to put a gay character in. Which I think misses the point.
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I'm a hopeless romantic. ♥Well, I do disagree but I do so with respect.
Truth is if I could be you and just enjoy it, instead of being me and nitpick all the time I'd take it
I don't want to completely dominate a thread so I wanna bow out here but I do want to say I'm happy for the polite back and forth and truly do wish that however they write it, gives something that you all find entertaining. Thank you very much for the spirited conversation. If anyone wants to reply specifically anything I said please PM me and i'll be more than happy to continue, but after reading through this I feel a little ridiculous with how much activity on it I have.
It took Orville two episode, it took Trek over seven hundred. With Orville it was a prominate character and they were right out in open about showing two males in bed together.
Yes, that makes Orville "better."
Does it count as a gay couple when an entire species is all-male?
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