1960's and risqué clothes?

[Spot261]

Allowed by the 2012 rule change. Nothing I've read on the subject indicates that the Egyptian team received any special disposition for their uniforms other than being allowed under the new rules. I'd be interested in seeing a citation if that is not the case.

It's funny, The same year (2016) that Egypt showed up in their uniforms, April Ross and Kerri Walsh Jennings had their sponsors design a unique uniform for the same Olympic Games. Four years after the rule change, not only was the bikini still their choice, but they wanted a better version.

Their choice.

It's not a great source but:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/82926043/evolution-of-womens-beach-volleyball-uniforms

but the key point here is this:

The FIVB said the change was made in order to "respect the custom and/or religious beliefs" of players.

which is choice for all the wrong reasons. Players can now chose the original format (which was very specific and explicit about how much flesh can be covered up (not much), an intermediate option of t shirt and shorts or a full body covering, but the reason driving the change wasn't feminism any more that the reason for the skimpy outfits on Trek was either.

Roddenberry (a man) wanted women in skimpy clothes in 1966 whilst Islam (a patriarchal religion) wanted women covered up in 2012. I get that the rules allow for choice but the idea that said choice is the bedrock of feminism starts to look a bit suspect if said "choice" is there in order to accommodate another form of repression,

Kerry Walsh may well feel the way she does, but she doesn't speak for the sport. Someone called Anna Scarlett apparently gave a very different opinion, but the feelings of players such as herself were not, it seems, the driving force behind the change. Instead it was respecting religious sensibilities.

Good move but for all the wrong reasons, just like Trek.

 

[BK613]

@Spot261 Ok I'm out.

This quote is from Anna Scarlett in the article that you linked too ( and I relinked too.) Did you even read it?

"I couldn't think of anything else you could play beach volleyball in. Your pockets fill up with sand, it gets so hot out there and even when it's raining if you are playing in shorts and singlet it would get heavy."
​

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/82926043/evolution-of-womens-beach-volleyball-uniforms

 

[jaime]

I think it's stupid if a man did it too.
I guess I don't see the correlation between winning a game and pulling off one's clothes.
I've won numerous times at various sports and never ince felt compelled to disrobe.

If it helps, men now get in trouble for doing it too. I don’t know if they get in trouble for sticking over their head like toddlers though.

It’s really not a sexism thing.

 

[Nakita Akita]

It's not a great source but:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/82926043/evolution-of-womens-beach-volleyball-uniforms

but the key point here is this:



which is choice for all the wrong reasons. Players can now chose the original format (which was very specific and explicit about how much flesh can be covered up (not much), an intermediate option of t shirt and shorts or a full body covering, but the reason driving the change wasn't feminism any more that the reason for the skimpy outfits on Trek was either.

Roddenberry (a man) wanted women in skimpy clothes in 1966 whilst Islam (a patriarchal religion) wanted women covered up in 2012. I get that the rules allow for choice but the idea that said choice is the bedrock of feminism starts to look a bit suspect if said "choice" is there in order to accommodate another form of repression,

Kerry Walsh may well feel the way she does, but she doesn't speak for the sport. Someone called Anna Scarlett apparently gave a very different opinion, but the feelings of players such as herself were not, it seems, the driving force behind the change. Instead it was respecting religious sensibilities.

Good move but for all the wrong reasons, just like Trek.

Well, the sides of the bikini bottom are allowed to be 7cm wide.
I gotta pay more attention to the men's beach volley ball next time. I must have not noticed the 7cm sides on their bikini bottoms. Darn it.
I don't see anything wrong with the Egyptian
Lady on the right hand side of the picture. Maybe shorts on the bottom, or not long might be okay.

 

[jaime]

I have a dream, of when people will not be judged by the coverage of their clothing, and perhaps not even by the content of their underwear, but by the conversations they hold, their interests, and the contents of their smile.

 

[Spot261]

I have a dream, of when people will not be judged by the coverage of their clothing, and perhaps not even by the content of their underwear, but by the conversations they hold, their interests, and the contents of their smile.

Well that's me fucked.

Pretty face and a decent pair of legs, that's all I got.

 

[Jedman67]

Gene Roddenberry was, by a great many reports, a swinger. A stereotypical, always on the prowl, wolf. He loved the ladies. He loved them even more in short skirts and would attend many of the fittings (which even then was thought odd). Thank God that wasn't the era of #MeToo movement or he would've gone on trial (though, to be fair, he was no Cosby or Weinstein).

I've read a few stories here and there that suggest there was more beneath the surface. No sources atm, although if I find them I"ll share.
It's pretty well known that his ideas on sexual norms were a bit pervy even for their times, he was a womanizer, and IIRC he had a big hand in the episode where Wesley gets sentenced to death on the Sex Planet. (S1).

 

[jaime]

Well that's me fucked.

Pretty face and a decent pair of legs, that's all I got.

I got the smile bit in just for this eventuality. Though on reflection, I should make allowances for early era posh spices of the world. There’s always room for a pout.

 

[jaime]

I've read a few stories here and there that suggest there was more beneath the surface. No sources atm, although if I find them I"ll share.
It's pretty well known that his ideas on sexual norms were a bit pervy even for their times, he was a womanizer, and IIRC he had a big hand in the episode where Wesley gets sentenced to death on the Sex Planet. (S1).

Read the fifty years books. The words ‘fountains of cum’ will never, ever, leave your mind.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I have a dream, of when people will not be judged by the coverage of their clothing, and perhaps not even by the content of their underwear, but by the conversations they hold, their interests, and the contents of their smile.

I guess that's really sums up my feelings about TOS.
Until my BF, now, nobody who I dated ever saw me for content.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well that's me fucked.

Pretty face and a decent pair of legs, that's all I got.

I'm sure you're fabulous, inside and out.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Thank God that wasn't the era of #MeToo movement or he would've gone on trial (though, to be fair, he was no Cosby or Weinstein).

We don't know that he wasn't.

Well, if Grace Lee was actually referring to Roddenberry when she detailed her abuse by The Executive, he wasn't really much better.

If "The Executive" actually was GR (and I personally believe that he was), then Roddenberry was exactly what Cosby and Weinstein have both been proven to be, a rapist.

I maybe critical of The Great Bird from tie to time but in no way do I believe he would try and force himself on a woman.

I don't see how you can definitively say this unless you personally knew Gene Roddenberry. Hell, Bill Cosby's public image for decades was of a clean, family-friendly entertainer. The truth was something very different. Anyone who only knew GR from what his public image was cannot say what he was actually like with any certainty.

However, since they apparently had no issues with each other after the fact...

Again, we don't know that. All we know is that they had some professional contact over a decade after she was fired from the show.

I prefer to not believe it.

Believe what you want to believe.

Gary Lockwood's book recalls Gene forcibly kissing a woman during an audition on The Lieutenant. She ran out in tears. That's textbook sexual assault, not "swinging."

>sigh< Just when I think that I've heard all of the stories that lowered my opinion of Gene Roddenberry as a person...

 

[Nakita Akita]

We don't know that he wasn't.

If "The Executive" actually was GR (and I personally believe that he was), then Roddenberry was exactly what Cosby and Weinstein have both been proven to be, a rapist.

I don't see how you can definitively say this unless you personally knew Gene Roddenberry. Hell, Bill Cosby's public image for decades was of a clean, family-friendly entertainer. The truth was something very different. Anyone who only knew GR from what his public image was cannot say what he was actually like with any certainty.

Again, we don't know that. All we know is that they had some professional contact over a decade after she was fired from the show.

Believe what you want to believe.

>sigh< Just when I think that I've heard all of the stories that lowered my opinion of Gene Roddenberry as a person...

I always just concluded from TOS, as I was older that he was a Pervy @sshole.
From the women on the show, you could tell he was a womanizer. All of the women are young and attractive and all are dressed in skimpy outfits.
1960's or not it was condescending. I'm not a 1960's show expert but I'll bet there were shows out there where the woman in the show were permitted to be more than just an object to be viewed.
I recently watched, the episode The Savage Curtain, where Spoke and Kirk and Abraham Lincoln have to battle the most evil people from history,
Anyway one of the most evil persons is a woman, they made her up to look hideous,
But, wait for it.
Even She wears a shortie top, so that her figure shows. The top is supposed to be fur!
If it's cold, you don't wear tiny clothes!!!

 

[Ssosmcin]

Believe what you want to believe...

Of course. Because in the end, it’s all we’ve got. We have her vivid description but a lack of naming the attacker. She never refers to Roddenberry in a negative light and seems to go out of her way to separate the men while conversely dropping points that can lead people to believe it was him.

So while the reported evidence is strong, it’s still circumstantial. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was him, but since Grace didn’t name him, I don’t want to say “he did it.”

Because we don’t know. So yup, like you my friend, I choose to believe what I want to believe. However, it won’t change my life if he is definitively named as the attacker.

Having said that, your analysis of it is compelling and it’s a really well reasoned case.

 

[Armus]

I always just concluded from TOS, as I was older that he was a Pervy @sshole.
From the women on the show, you could tell he was a womanizer. All of the women are young and attractive and all are dressed in skimpy outfits.
1960's or not it was condescending. I'm not a 1960's show expert but I'll bet there were shows out there where the woman in the show were permitted to be more than just an object to be viewed.
I recently watched, the episode The Savage Curtain, where Spoke and Kirk and Abraham Lincoln have to battle the most evil people from history,
Anyway one of the most evil persons is a woman, they made her up to look hideous,
But, wait for it.
Even She wears a shortie top, so that her figure shows. The top is supposed to be fur!
If it's cold, you don't wear tiny clothes!!!

Yup, she's the only one with a bare tummy.

 

[Falconer]

The OP acknowledged several times on page 1 of this thread that there are plenty of instances of very scantily-clad men in this show (you don’t need me to point out examples), so, not sure how this has changed to be about women only.

You’ll often see completely shirtless men but not completely shirtless women — their tummies can be bared, but not their chests! What a crazy time those 60s were!

Maybe we should talk about how often fans shame Shatner for his weight or his hair (or his age, now). I don’t think there is any other performer in all of Star Trek to have those factors brought up anywhere near as much.

 

[M'Sharak]

1960's or not it was condescending. I'm not a 1960's show expert...

No argument. This has been amply demonstrated.

... but I'll bet there were shows out there where the woman in the show were permitted to be more than just an object to be viewed.

There were, but you wouldn't want to bet a lot on it, as there weren't many. And even on those shows, those women were permitted to be so only very sparingly. When rocking the boat, one had to be careful not to rock too hard or too often, if one expected one's show to remain afloat until the next season.

...

Maybe we should talk about how often fans shame Shatner for his weight or his hair (or his age, now). I don’t think there is any other performer in all of Star Trek to have those factors brought up anywhere near as much.

None of the things you mention have much to do with the 1960s, and besides that, what would be the least bit risqué about any of it?

 

[Falconer]

Sorry, that came out as rather a non-sequitur after I pared down some other points from my post. It was in response generally to the repeated complaint that there is a double-standard in the way women were objectified in the 1960s and to this present day. So, Shatner was an example of a performer who was frequently shirtless on the show. And his weight and his hair (in the 1960s) were often commented on in the 1960s, weren’t they? Anyway, they are now. I muddied the waters by bringing up his age.

 

[Maurice]

[...]There were, but you wouldn't want to bet a lot on it, as there weren't many. And even on those shows, those women were permitted to be so only very sparingly. When rocking the boat, one had to be careful not to rock too hard or too often, if one expected one's show to remain afloat until the next season.[...]

Well, many TV shows of the period were full of women who weren't parading around as eye candy. How much of that happened was oft about the genre of the show. Action adventure was all about various kinds of titillation, dramas and sitcoms typically less so.

 

[Commishsleer]

Maryanne and Ginger frequently went around in skimpy clothes in Gilligan's Island.

Number One, Dr Dehner, Arail Shaw, Romulan Commander, Edith Keeler, Miri, the girl turned into a dodecahedron and crushed weren't objectified eye-candy.
Not saying other ladies in the series weren't.

However you could also start looking at Troi, T'Pol, 7of9 if you want to pick other eye candy examples.

Look I hate to defend the short uniforms but TOS was set in the future.Its not that difficult to think that that (in the 60s wishful thinking for some) skirts were going to get shorter and shorter in the future.

It's not a great source but:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/82926043/evolution-of-womens-beach-volleyball-uniforms

but the key point here is this:



which is choice for all the wrong reasons. Players can now chose the original format (which was very specific and explicit about how much flesh can be covered up (not much), an intermediate option of t shirt and shorts or a full body covering, but the reason driving the change wasn't feminism any more that the reason for the skimpy outfits on Trek was either.

Roddenberry (a man) wanted women in skimpy clothes in 1966 whilst Islam (a patriarchal religion) wanted women covered up in 2012. I get that the rules allow for choice but the idea that said choice is the bedrock of feminism starts to look a bit suspect if said "choice" is there in order to accommodate another form of repression,

Kerry Walsh may well feel the way she does, but she doesn't speak for the sport. Someone called Anna Scarlett apparently gave a very different opinion, but the feelings of players such as herself were not, it seems, the driving force behind the change. Instead it was respecting religious sensibilities.

Good move but for all the wrong reasons, just like Trek.

I played volleyball for a decade as a social player. I even played a bit of beach volleyball.
When beach volleyball came to the Olympics I though great until I found out about the uniform restrictions. The ladies had to wear skimpy bikinis and the men board shorts and a skimpy top. I refused to take the sport seriously. Might as well watch a Miss Universe Competition.
And I know some female runners wear as little as the beach volleyballers but it is their choice. I'm offended by the idea that a woman could not play beach volleyball unless she wore a bikini. And I know most players don't mind so that's fine with me if its their choice. I'm glad the rules have changed. I might watch it now.