1701-A

[Dukhat]

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

If Starfleet wanted to punish Kirk, they would have just drummed him out of the service, not given him a (admittedly malfunctioning) ship and sent him on a mission.

If you think about some of the COs we see in the movies -- Terrell who ignored a missing planet, Styles with hubris befitting the worst of Greek tragedies, Esteban who would report in to request permission to move his bowels, or nervous Harriman who left dock with half his ship missing -- Would you want one of them taking on a mission of any great importance?

Those are four captains. I believe Starfleet has more captains than that. Perhaps even one that might even be competent enough to fly in, beam up some hostages, and fly away again.

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats.

By the time of the TMP movies, the original Enterprise was a cadet training ship. And in the context of the TOS movies as a whole, the Ent-A seemed to be just a toy given to Kirk to play with temporarily until the new Ent-B was built. None of that screams "prestigious" to me.

 

[Shikarnov]

I like STV, but even I admit it has some big flaws and could have been way better.

They could have ditched the glitchy Enterprise angle, ditched the Klingons, probably ditch the lost brother angle.

Agreed. I think Shatner was trying too hard to make a movie that would please everybody. It's campy, it's funny, it's dealing with serious themes, it's got action, it's got adventure, everybody get's screen time, there's character development, blah blah blah. It's got something for everybody, and therefore too little for anybody...

Ironically, I've grown a degree of affection for V over the years. I just love these characters.

 

[Paradise City]

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats. The hoodlums that kidnapped the three ambassadors are planet bound hoodlums. Ship to ship combat wasn't anticipated for this mission.

Wasn't it?

CPT KIRK: Have the Klingons responded?
ADM BENNETT (on viewscreen): No, but you can bet they will.

...

DR McCOY: Jim! If you ask me, ...and you haven't, I think this is a terrible idea. We're bound to bump into the Klingons and they don't exactly like you.

...

CPT SCOTT: Don't you worry, Captain. We'll beat those Klingon devils even if I have to get out and push.

I remember that now. But still, it isn't the Feds that are kidnapping people; it's these hoodlums. And maybe some peace-nik type higher up the pecking order thought it was a "good idea". Harve himself does look a little embarrassed to be ordering the ship out on this one.

 

[Paradise City]

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

If Starfleet wanted to punish Kirk, they would have just drummed him out of the service, not given him a (admittedly malfunctioning) ship and sent him on a mission.

If you think about some of the COs we see in the movies -- Terrell who ignored a missing planet, Styles with hubris befitting the worst of Greek tragedies, Esteban who would report in to request permission to move his bowels, or nervous Harriman who left dock with half his ship missing -- Would you want one of them taking on a mission of any great importance?

Those are four captains. I believe Starfleet has more captains than that. Perhaps even one that might even be competent enough to fly in, beam up some hostages, and fly away again.

We can forget by the time the movies come up that Kirk is a diplomat too and a veteran one. Enterprise is a prestigious ship. The Enterprise was sent because you can't screw about kidnapping Federation diplomats.

By the time of the TMP movies, the original Enterprise was a cadet training ship. And in the context of the TOS movies as a whole, the Ent-A seemed to be just a toy given to Kirk to play with temporarily until the new Ent-B was built. None of that screams "prestigious" to me.

Kirk and the Enterprise are heroes. "They saved this planet" is what Admiral Whathisname says in Star Trek VI. The Klingon's single him out as a villain of note. They all want Kirk's head and so on. Popular prestige may not square with mundane reality (maybe Starfleet are internally wary of the guy as a maverick and has fallen from grace like Korrd), mind you but the name of Enterprise and Kirk are prestigious.

 

[Shikarnov]

If you think about some of the COs we see in the movies -- Terrell who ignored a missing planet, Styles with hubris befitting the worst of Greek tragedies, Esteban who would report in to request permission to move his bowels, or nervous Harriman who left dock with half his ship missing -- Would you want one of them taking on a mission of any great importance?

Those are four captains. I believe Starfleet has more captains than that. Perhaps even one that might even be competent enough to fly in, beam up some hostages, and fly away again.

Granted. But they're not just any captains... They're four captains assigned to some pretty important posts.

Styles' had a plum assignment; CO of Startfleet's newest class of ship -- a ship our heroes (all but Scotty anyway) were marveling over in III, and to which Sulu was hoping they would be assigned at the end of IV.

Terrell and Esteban both were involved in Project Genesis, one of the most significant developments in terraforming and weaponry to be seen in Star Trek, and which threatened to so upset the balance of power that it became a "galactic controversy" practically overnight.

And Harriman was supposed to be a captain of the Enterprise. Whatever speculation we've been discussing about the ship's reputation within Starfleet (Kirk's toy, pissing off other officers by making them look bad, etc), to the audience, being assigned to the Enterprise is supposed to be a great privilege -- not the sort of thing you give to just anybody.

Ergo, I think they really do represent the best of the best -- which is really quite a big a problem for Starfleet! lol.

 

[Dukhat]

Kirk and the Enterprise are heroes. "They saved this planet" is what Admiral Whathisname says in Star Trek VI. The Klingon's single him out as a villain of note. They all want Kirk's head and so on. Popular prestige may not square with mundane reality (maybe Starfleet are internally wary of the guy as a maverick and has fallen from grace like Korrd), mind you but the name of Enterprise and Kirk are prestigious.

But the mission itself wasn't all that prestigious. It was just a hostage rescue mission. Any ship and any captain could have just gone in there, beamed up the hostages, and left without the kidnappers even knowing who they were. And even if they had to actually go down to the planet and get the hostages by force, why didn't Starfleet just send in a black ops commando unit? Why a malfunctioning ship full of senior citizens?

Granted. But they're not just any captains... They're four captains assigned to some pretty important posts.

Again, that's implying that there are only four important posts and only four important captains for said posts. We all know that's not true

 

[BillJ]

If Starfleet wanted to punish Kirk, they would have just drummed him out of the service, not given him a (admittedly malfunctioning) ship and sent him on a mission.

If the Federation President is commander and chief of the military, Starfleet may not have gotten a choice on how to handle Kirk and Company.

Kirk could have been handed any ship. The 1701-A reeks of political opportunism.

 

[GNDN18]

Because NOTHING IN THAT MOVIE MADE ANY F%@*&ING SENSE!

Oh, I disagree. One thing made sense: bourbon and beans.

 

[Paradise City]

I like STV, but even I admit it has some big flaws and could have been way better.

They could have ditched the glitchy Enterprise angle, ditched the Klingons, probably ditch the lost brother angle.

Agreed. I think Shatner was trying too hard to make a movie that would please everybody. It's campy, it's funny, it's dealing with serious themes, it's got action, it's got adventure, everybody get's screen time, there's character development, blah blah blah. It's got something for everybody, and therefore too little for anybody...

Ironically, I've grown a degree of affection for V over the years. I just love these characters.

I actually went against the grain and enjoyed the film and what frustrates me about this film is just simply that they didn't tighten up on the plot in ways that really wouldn't have taken much work. The basic plot here isn't a bad one, IMO, it was just very sloppily implemented.

I would've cast Sybok as being influenced in much the same way as Barclay was influenced in the Nth Degree - except malevolently. Both the Klingons and the Enterprise were pulled into whatever wormhole the calculations of an "inspired" Sybok had come up with.

And the one species where you might pull a "half brother" out of a hat are the Vulcans who are simultaneously both tightly disciplined yet hamstrung by these rigid stigmas to a ridiculous degree. A delinquent, heretical half brother might plausibly be jettisoned from Vulcan society and might not be mentioned by their establishment Vulcan family. This trauma would also give new pathos to the sheer determination of Spock to remove from himself every last vestige of uncontrolled human emotion.

The way the bridge crew turn against Kirk is unsettling. There's the sense that the bridge crew think they are loyal to Kirk by turning to Sybok. But this is still traumatic for the audience.

Now Shatner as director wanted to turn McCoy and Spock against Kirk. Now that would've been a very, very dumb move and Nimoy and Kelley both objected to it, rightly. There's some great scenes here as we explore McCoy and Spock's inner worlds, Kirk makes a fundamental point about pain being an intrinsic part of living and the true depth of the relationship of the trio is underlined when they resist Sybok's mind melds or whatever innovation that he was up to.

Luckinbill's performance is strong for me. He is this genius type carried away in his own creative power; a very jovial Vulcan Byron that's easy with people. Such a flagrant contrast with Spock!

And the opening scenes and the closing ones are powerful too.

The film is hurt badly by sloppy implementation by Shatner and some stupid pseudo-comedy the execs wanted in there because they liked the fourth one but I did enjoy this film on the whole.

 

[Paradise City]

But the mission itself wasn't all that prestigious. It was just a hostage rescue mission. Any ship and any captain could have just gone in there, beamed up the hostages, and left without the kidnappers even knowing who they were. And even if they had to actually go down to the planet and get the hostages by force, why didn't Starfleet just send in a black ops commando unit? Why a malfunctioning ship full of senior citizens?

It is prestigious. The Federation brass would've considered it so as they are an organisation who put prime stress on exploration and diplomacy. You've got three diplomats from the three major adversaries in probably one of the few peace projects they've got going involving these powers and they've just been kidnapped. That's a big deal and alot of prestige is at stake.

That's a bigger deal than when Picard and Admiral Jameson went to some backwater planet to sort out the mess between the bunch of squabbling nobodies there. That backwater planet still commanded the attention of the flagship so it's plausible the Enterprise would be summoned to Nimbus to clear up the antics there.

There's potential for a full scale interstellar incident should the Romulan, Klingon and Federation diplomats be killed by the kidnappers. So, yeah, sure, you'd send your top people there.

 

[Dukhat]

^But they weren't top people. They were a bunch of almost-retirees who were given a ship to fly around in as a favor to Kirk. And how would the kidnapping of three washed up ambassadors by a bunch of ragged colonists constitute a full scale interstellar incident? Starfleet sent old geezers on a malfunctioning ship. The Klingons just sent a subspace message about it, not even saying or asking anyone to go there (Klaa only went because he wanted to kill Kirk for some reason, not that he was ordered to rescue Koord.) And the Romulans didn't send anyone.

 

[Paradise City]

^But they weren't top people. They were a bunch of almost-retirees who were given a ship to fly around in as a favor to Kirk. And how would the kidnapping of three washed up ambassadors by a bunch of ragged colonists constitute a full scale interstellar incident? Starfleet sent old geezers on a malfunctioning ship. The Klingons just sent a subspace message about it, not even saying or asking anyone to go there (Klaa only went because he wanted to kill Kirk for some reason, not that he was ordered to rescue Koord. And the Romulans didn't send anyone.

They are hardly older than Captain Picard really, who had a long service record as captain before him too. I'm not fazed by their age.

On the planet, they are diplomats of the three major adversaries. The implications of their slaughter will trigger outrage irrespective of whether a 'streetwise' assessment of the place is that it's a backwater. The drama of a kidnapping situation would catapult a forgotten backwater right into the public eye again.

Maybe the Romulans didn't care and knew the score but the Federation brass might not count on that. The Klingon military don't care either but their government might particularly if the diplomat was killed.

I think Kirk is popular with the Federation and the Federation public because they saved the planet a few times. Starfleet are more wary of Kirk given that he is a volatile maverick, but orders are orders from the Federation brass, so off the Enterprise goes to Nimbus III.

 

[Lance]

Agreed. I think Shatner was trying too hard to make a movie that would please everybody. It's campy, it's funny, it's dealing with serious themes, it's got action, it's got adventure, everybody get's screen time, there's character development, blah blah blah. It's got something for everybody, and therefore too little for anybody...

Ironically, I've grown a degree of affection for V over the years. I just love these characters.

I've never held to the theory that Shatner didn't know what he was creating. Although some other Trek movies feel like they've got the same characters but are telling stories with a much bigger canvas, TFF feels like, in many ways, the most accurate distillation of what The Original Series was often *like* on an episode-by-episode basis. It seems clear to me that Shatner remembered some of the briefs given to the writers of most episodes of the TV show, and did his best to replicate that feel on the big screen. In that regard, it could be argued that it falls beneath it's ambition... but view it from another angle, and it's like a nostalgic love-letter back to the 1960s from the 1980s. Which is not necessarily a bad thing at all.

 

[Nebusj]

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

If Starfleet wanted to punish Kirk, they would have just drummed him out of the service, not given him a (admittedly malfunctioning) ship and sent him on a mission.

I wonder if it's possible that Star Fleet decided that, on the whole, it was possible to go to Nimbus III, beam up some hostages, and return, even despite the considerable operational handicaps of the turbo-lift doors sometimes getting stuck and the sound chip for Red Alert glitching.

 

[Lance]

Nothing necessarily states that the civilian government and Starfleet were on the same page here. Kirk ended up making Starfleet look rather incompetent about the whole Genesis affair. That had to have ruffled some feathers with the higher ups.

If Starfleet wanted to punish Kirk, they would have just drummed him out of the service, not given him a (admittedly malfunctioning) ship and sent him on a mission.

My belief is that it's all about the optics. To Kirk, getting demoted to Captain and being handed another ship isn't a punishment at all: it's almost exactly what he wants, and is definitely Starfleet rewarding him for saving the planet with the whole Whales-from-the-20th-century gambit. But to outsiders/the admiralty/the media (and Star Trek: Generations confirms that the media exists in Kirk's time and that it seems to operate very much like today's TV media), they've still staged a 'trial' and handed down a 'punishment'. So justice has been seen to be done, even if the results are hardly ''hanging from the tallest yard arm''.

 

[Paradise City]

My take is that Kirk is a great hero with the Federation politicians and the public.

He ain't popular with Starfleet though due to his propensity to fly off the reservation in a big way and jettison important orders to pursue personal projects.

Starfleet has to bite its tongue, smile through gritted teeth and find a clever way to appease the brass whilst keeping Kirk off the furniture. So they gave them the Enterprise A.

That said, I doubt the writers intended that and they just included dumb scenes in TFF with a malfunctioning Enterprise for comic relief at the behest of the execs flushed with the success of the light hearted fourth film.

 

[Shikarnov]

I doubt the writers intended that...

I'm 99% sure that's exactly the case for 99% of the ideas we all come up with on the board. We tend to work around them a lot, trying to make sense of their many oversights, omissions, and other creative choices and mistakes.