14th Doctor is Here! BBC Children in Need 2023!

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Romulan_spy, Nov 17, 2023.

  1. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    I have a big problem with y'all referring to Davros as "a wheelchair user".

    Davros was never in a wheelchair. ;)


    Anyway, with what RTD says in that video does this mean they're putting the kibosh on any villains with "otherness" qualities? No more scarred villains. Or fat villains. I'm betting that "alien yuckiness" doesn't count.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
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  2. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Don't worry. We'll still have farting villains.
     
  3. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I applaud RTD for this bold, progressive move.

    I say: keep up the momentum.

     
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  4. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The whole ‘Davros is a wheelchair user’ is daft. The Daleks and Cybermen *both* by that logic — especially RTDs own CybusMen — are much more offensive then. (Which, when things are made horrifically explicit, as in World Enough and Time, they kind of are *too much* … those hit too close to real.)

    Worth pointing out that ‘villains with disability’ as a thing comes from a period (particularly in the Bond books, where Bond himself has a facial scar) where heroes with disabilities are also a thing — because of their genesis in that post-war era. Think also of… Daltman? Wheelchair bound hero in the second ever Dalek story.
     
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  5. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have both of those xD
     
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  6. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This is the same person that wrote Love & Monsters, which has a fat alien and ends with a woman stuck as an immortal head in a brick that is implied to be sexually satisfying her annoying nerd boyfriend. So, sentencing a character to be an immortal/unmoving oral sex machine is ok, but Davros being fucking Davros isn't. Thats not even mentioning all the childish "adult" parts of Torchwood, a show that seemed to be made by dumb, horny 15 year olds for dumb, horny 15 year olds.

    Well, I guess we've seen the last of Davros, the Cybermen, the Daleks (because they were mutated from humanoids [or at least humanoid genetic material], which makes them mutants which is a physical thing), the Sontarons (the breathing pipe is a weak point, and having a specific weak point that is part of their biology can be construed as a disability), the Slitheen (can't have an alien where part of their biology, aka frequent farting, is considered a negative), and many more.

    Maybe he'll use his influence to force Big Finish to stop using the Geoffrey Beevers Master, because he looks like a burn victim. Heck, according to RTD every version of The Master has permanent tinnitus, constantly hearing knocking, which (according to a quick google) can be considered a disability in the UK, not to mention that The Master could easily be diagnosed with various mental health problems, which is also like a disability in some cases. Honestly, I could probably think of stupid reasons that match the Davros thing to ban almost every Doctor Who villain that isn't a robot.

    To be clear, I believe in representation and having people of all types and I think people that complained about Chibnall being "woke" were morons, but this stuff with Davros from RTD is like a bad parody of "woke" thinking that assholes would use as a hypothetical situation in an argument.
     
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  7. bdub76

    bdub76 Captain Captain

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    That was a great short. Loved it.
     
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  8. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    Warning for flaming. Comments to PM
     
  9. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I just watched it. It was fine for what it was, 5 minutes of pure fluff.

    The whole Davros in a wheelchair nonsense though—is Russell Davies trolling us? It’s possible. I’ve never, ever viewed Davros as a disabled wheelchair user. He’s a partly mutated person in a Dalek base. It’s the bottom half of a Dalek, not a wheelchair. Gads. The very fact this debate exists is beyond ludicrous.

    I suspect the real reason Davros wasn’t featured in mutated/half-Dalek mode was because the makeup would have pushed up what looked like its £25 budget.
     
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  10. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think my face would've made a good reaction gif as RTD started rolling out his truth bombs. If we didn't know better, it could have been construed as a good piss-take.
     
  11. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    It does seem odd considering that there are plenty of RTD-original villains that are better examples of the harmful trope he's trying to fight, and choosing to plant his flag with a reimagining of Davros which may not ever actually come to pass. It gives me the same disquiet as the fact that, technically, several milestones in inclusively casting the Doctor themselves are held by children who we're never actually going to see play the Doctor in a meaningful sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
  12. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What have the leaders of disability rights advocacy groups had to say?

    I personally don't care if Davros gets reimagined. I just think it's silly not to have a conversation about disabled people without learning what consensus, if any, exists within that community.
     
  13. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    At the very least, RTD's worked with Ruth Madeley on Years and Years and Doctor Who, He might also know Coronation Street's Cherylee Houston, possibly through Phil Collinson, who went from producing Doctor Who to producing Corrie in Houston's early years on the latter show, or maybe through her partner Toby Hadoke, who's done a lot of Doctor Who-related stuff. They're high profile wheelchair-using actors on UK TV and I'm sure they'd have opinions on the subject. So he could get feedback if he wanted it.
     
  14. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Admiral Admiral

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    He may or may not be representative of other people with disabilities but I follow this guy on twitter, he’s a local (to me) disability rights activist who is also a huge DW fan and what he said was
    https://twitter.com/castledd/status/1725843991982187003?s=46&t=4gRLv-uovddel5zbS4TQ9g

     
  15. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I came across a tweet thread from a wheelchair-bound man known for his Davros cosplays. Said how much he loved connecting with other fans and that it'd been a real boost to his self-esteem.

    He went on to say he'd never once encountered negative feedback from fellow wheelchair users. Most of the time, they expressed their jealousy of Davros' chair and wished they had a similar pimped-out ride.

    Also happened upon this gentleman:


    There was no simmering tension brewing on the matter. No outcry from the community. In fact, from the accounts I've read - far from being offensive - those in the disabled community loved the character as he was. Davros was a survivor. He endured in spite of his confinement to a life support system. He was relentless. He created the freakin' Daleks, waged war against the Timelords themselves and persisted in spite of suffering countless setbacks and defeats - all from his chair. That's pretty awesome and was something which resonated with many who are not able-bodied, it seems.

    And now, RTD takes that away from them in the name of heaven-knows-what.

    By all means, be mindful of the trope going forward with new characters. As I understand it, there is positive representation for disabled characters in the upcoming season. But get some damn perspective. There were no winners from this decision.
     
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  16. ED-209

    ED-209 Commodore Commodore

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    I liked pre-accident Davros till I found out that's not what he is and they've retconned a character with over 40 years of history.

    I suspect Micky Mouse told RTD to do it, you know what they're like.
     
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  17. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I genuinely feel and think RTD had the best intentions. But I don't know if overcorrecting THIS particular villain is the way to go, but then again, I am a fossil from older times.
     
  18. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'll repeat myself that as far as I'm concerned, this minisode depicts a pre-injury Davros. Granted, it carries the implication that his injuries occurred far sooner before Genesis of the Daleks than I previously assumed, but that is not a deal breaker itself.

    Unless and until a post-Dalek creation Davros shows up and is still able-bodied like he is here, I will continue to hold this belief in my own "head canon" if you will. And even if we do get able-bodied Davros at some point in the Doctor's subjective "present day" perspective, I'll be willing to view and judge to see if we can somehow square peg into the round hole over this.

    I get the perspective from actual wheelchair bound people on this matter and why they are upset to have Davros no longer in his chair, and yes, this is a potential loss to them. But from the perspective of a non-disabled person looking at this from strictly objective narrative reasons, I don't see a reason to panic yet.

    Though I will say RTD sure is giving some sloppily worded interviews this time around. Between this and his comments last year about how he felt it would have been "wrong" to show Tennant wearing Whittaker's costume, I feel the guy should review what he says before he gives these interviews just to avoid these kind of reactions his comments are generating among fandom.
     
  19. bdub76

    bdub76 Captain Captain

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    Didn’t really think about this. Thought it might before an accident to get him in the chair. Then I listened to Radio Free Skaro this morning and heard the reasoning. Bit much for me honestly.

    Can we stick with telling good stories and focus less on the coddling? My significant other hasn’t watched Doctor Who with me since Matt. She didn’t care for Capaldi, and she thought the Jodi stories were like after school specials. Let’s get back to the entertaining stories. The she might watch more than one or two with the new Doctor after Tennant regenerates.
     
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  20. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    These are all valid points of view, but they are also individual anecdotes. It's certainly not uncommon for a variety of points of view to be present within a marginalized community -- but do we have evidence of a consensus within the disabled community?

    Listen, I can sympathize with both arguments for or against reimagining Davros. But Davies didn't do it "in the name of heaven-knows-what." He laid out his reasons very clearly.

    Do you have evidence for this claim that the Walt Disney Company pressured RTD to reimagine Davros? It's not like RTD lacks a history of progressive storytelling choices.

    I am not entirely persuaded that this was a good decision on RTD's part, but that doesn't make it coddling, either. Wanting to move away from negative stereotypes is a completely legitimate artistic goal, even if this might not have been the right way to go about it.