Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x08 - "Broken Pieces"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by pst, Mar 5, 2020.

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Rate Episode 1x08 "Broken Pieces"

  1. 10 - Fenris Rangers

    57 vote(s)
    24.3%
  2. 9

    93 vote(s)
    39.6%
  3. 8

    48 vote(s)
    20.4%
  4. 7

    19 vote(s)
    8.1%
  5. 6

    7 vote(s)
    3.0%
  6. 5

    6 vote(s)
    2.6%
  7. 4

    1 vote(s)
    0.4%
  8. 3

    1 vote(s)
    0.4%
  9. 2

    1 vote(s)
    0.4%
  10. 1 - Power Rangers

    2 vote(s)
    0.9%
  1. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    That's an odd happenstance considering it's a work of fiction. Usually there's a reason for something like that, especially since we just got introduced to an all-female Romulan group, the Qowat Milat. For the audience it might unintentionally signal that there's a connection between the Zhat Vash and the Qowat Milat, it's the same group, or that only women are allowed to receive the vision. I got confused for a moment thinking that the Qowat Milat and the Zhat Vash were the same.
    It would be just as conspicuous if Commodore Oh was a male, and it was only men receiving this vision, the implication being that maybe women aren't tough enough to bear the admonition, or maybe there's some sort of sex segregation among the higher ranks of the Zhat Vash, or in Romulan society in general. Or maybe the writer's are just carelessly writing the scene in a very male-centric way.
     
  2. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, I didn't immediately recognize him in Independence Day, so if he looks like that... XD
     
  3. Midquest

    Midquest Captain Captain

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    According to Chabon, Romulan society is matriarchal, which would explain the two rival sects we've encountered.
    Also, @NCC-73515 We seem to have some avatar synergy happening. :beer:
     
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  4. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Then why were all praetors we've seen male?
     
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  5. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Would they really? Especially considering the same show already has the Qowat Milat, anyway?

    In any case this remains an idiotically false complaint as Narek still exists. And the Zhat Vash who lost his helment in episode 1 was a man, and so was the Zhat Vash they tried to interrogate in episode 3.

    It was a small group. It could easily have been pure coincidence that that particular batch of recruits were all women. Or the Zhat Vash believe in segregating ceremonies, that would hardly be culturally unprecedented.

    It also seems unavoidable. Hard to convince people to be this extreme without showing them the 'evidence'. This is presumably why the Zhat Vash is still relatively small despite being so old.

    I disagree. Not all people have to react the same. These particular people chose to believe in the alien prophecy/whatever it turns out to be. They would hardly be the first people in the franchise to do so.

    The bad guys killing indiscriminately is old news, even in Trek. I remember all the dead redshirts from TOS, goldshirts on TNG and those battle scenes of Klingons killing random people on DS9, etc. Thanks to Seven, the XBs were mourned significantly more than most deaths of unknown characters on the previous shows.
     
  6. Midquest

    Midquest Captain Captain

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    Ret-con? That's a question I wondered myself.
     
  7. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    It's actually quite the way they were portrayed in the Rihannsu novels.
     
  8. Midquest

    Midquest Captain Captain

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    Oh, interesting. I never got into many of the novels, but I've considered starting. I've always liked the Romulans, but I love them after Picard. Is Rihannsu a good place to start?
     
  9. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    They are very good but are not a good fit into the current canon. At the time they were considered definitive.
     
  10. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    If there's no particular significance then why portray only women in the ceremony? That's my point.
    It's like trying to explain why there are no Asians in the original trilogy of Star Wars films. I'm sure someone can come up with an in-universe explanation but I don't think people are going to buy it.

    It wouldn't be culturally unprecedented but it doesn't answer my question. Midquest's post seems to explain it though.

    Not really. There's no evidence of God/Allah being real, yet people have no problem with going to extreme's for their belief. Yet here we have recruits who are knowingly exposing themselves to something they might not survive, already proving their devotion to doing something extreme.
    And Oh was able to show Jurati the vision without Jurati killing herself. Why not do the less insane version of that vision to her recruits? Save some lives in the process?

    Not all people react the same but you'd think that someone would raise a hand and say, "hey, what if this were all a trick?" Especially considering how suspicious and duplicitous Romulans were portrayed prior to this.
    I can imagine if this was a group of "The End is Nigh" types with cardboard signs and cups for change, but considering they have access to technology, history, education, other cultures, etc, it's hard to believe they're would be some dissent among them. Even Jurati


    Yeah, just because old Trek used to do it, doesn't mean it's a good portrayal. If women in Starfleet were still wearing skirts and not allowed to be Captains, I wouldn't point to TOS and say, "hey, that's how it's always been done."

    I didn't get that impression at all. What were the XBs names? Who were they? It didn't have too much meaning because they were nameless characters just to demonstrate how bad the bad guy is.
     
  11. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    So Chabon wanted to now portray Romulan society as matriarchal but the origins of that depiction came before in earlier Star Trek novels?
     
  12. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why not? It's a handful of people. Only three of them are important to the story, who the rest are literally doesn't matter. And we'd already seen multiple men in the organization. There is no reason whatsoever to read anything into it at all.

    It's easy to convince (some) christians to be crusaders. They already live in a world where 'God' is fundamentally beyond question. The only stumbling block is convincing them that crusading is God's will. As you said, this is an alien prophecy, not a native religion. So no, you can't just tell people second-hand and expect them to believe you. You have to show them the proof.

    As for Oh, for all we know she's the first person in the Zhat Vash to ever have that capability so it would've been a tactic unavailable until now. And we don't know whether it really gives the full power of the vision or not, which would obviously be important to fanatics like the Zhat Vash. There is also the question of the typical traditionalist nature of extremist organizations, as well - highly probable that earlier generations of the Zhat Vash might not trust any new agents who didn't experience the full, traditional initiation.

    You say that like we have definitive proof no one has ever dissented. We've seen less than half a dozen individuals. The ones who dissented presumably left the group. As Jurati is doing now. (Those stories Laris and Zhaban heard had to come from somewhere.) Or were probably killed, in some cases. This isn't really a hard thing to figure out.

    Not just old Trek. Pretty much almost all stories everywhere (that involve multiple deaths, anyway).

    They were representative of everything that had been done to all the ex-Borg. I don't have to know their individual names anymore than I have to know the individual victims' names from the Holocaust. Seven mourned for them, her people, openly and that gave them meaning - far more meaning than the named redshirts who died only for Captain Kirk to end the episode casually joking around with Spock and McCoy like nothing had happened.
     
  13. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    Well apparently there is because Chabon has said that Romulan society is matriarchal. So that's probably the reason the scene was depicted that way.


    And what is this proof? It's a vision supposedly from some other alien civilization that they themselves never heard of or knew. How do they know they didn't stumble across some really potent space LSD?
    And again, if they need this convincing to follow this path, how did they get recruits in the first place? As I said, they're already willing to sacrifice their own lives just to endure this vision. Seems like they already are true believers.

    If she's the first person to have that capability, because of her Vulcan mind meld powers, why didn't she do that for her sisters? It made for a cool, violent horror scene. Why would they need the full power of the vision to create fanatics. They already have people willingly join the Zhat Vash.
    Jurati seemed pretty convinced without getting the full power of the vision, enough to kill Maddox. She didn't go through with it probably because she's not Romulan, not part of the Zhat Vash, loves synths, has a girl crush on Soji, and is friends with Picard's crew.
    If you already dedicate your life to the Zhat Vash and are a Romulan nationalist, the half powered vision seems like it'd be enough to seal the deal.

    Do extremist organizations typically want to keep their groups that small by recruiting people who will go mad? What if these useless nut jobs blab about the Zhat Vash or their mission? What if one of them snapped and killed Commodore Oh and then herself?

    No, but it's hard to believe that this group has survived this long without ANYONE in the Federation knowing about it, but apparently the secret that drives you mad about synthetics is somehow passed along by drunken Tal Shiar.
    If there were dissenters that left the group, they didn't tell anyone about it?

    So indulging in cliche. I have a problem with how action and death are portrayed in most mainstream action-adventure shows/movies.

    We're talking about fiction not real-life history. Not putting a name or story to victims is a sure way to help desensitize people to violence, which is why law enforcement or FBI have recommended to the news media to give a greater focus on the individual victims of mass shootings and less time to the shooter.
    Just seeing a # doesn't carry the same weight as putting a name to someone, finding out who they were, etc.

    The way people get killed in PIC lends some validity to the criticisms of its depiction of violence. Elnor is depicted as a very sensitive individual, even hugging Seven when she arrived. Yet he has no problem decapitating people right after uttering his obligatory catchphrase, "Please friends, choose to live."

    Captain Kirk casually joking around like nobody got killed? That's worthy of criticism as well, so I don't know how it counters my criticism.
     
  14. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's entirely fine with me. But if they weren't, the scene would still be entirely unremarkable in this respect.

    The proof is convincing. That's really all that matters. Yes, maybe not to everyone. It doesn't have to be. And I would presume that people agree to be recruited because they hear from other people that there is clear proof and they will be allowed to see it. Hell, for all we know at this point, it may not actually be *required* to see the proof if you want to work for the Zhat Vash. It may simply be a choice people can make.


    A more powerful vision = a more uncompromising fanatic. This is obviously something the Zhat Vash would value.

    Also, Jurati seemed pretty convinced for a while. Until she wasn't anymore. Maybe if she'd seen the full vision she still would be.


    Lots of extremist groups treat people as expendable, yes. And I'm sure somewhere in the long history of the Zhat Vash someone has gone mad and killed someone else - the group still lives on.

    As for blabbing, I'm 100% sure a group like the Zhat Vash would generally do their best to keep leaks to a minimum and people who try to leave the organization likely have a habit of disappearing mysteriously. But like I already said, the stories clearly are out there and had to come from somewhere. What's more likely - that some people successfully got out at least long enough to tell on them or that the Zhat Vash just think it's funny spreading urban legends about themselves?


    Again, this is assuming facts not in evidence. Picard, Jurati, the Admiral, etc, are not ALL people in the Federation. Did Luther Sloane know about the Zhat Vash? No evidence either way, so why couldn't he have?

    :shrug:

    There are limits to how many people can be effectively focused on in any given story. Any portrayal of multiple deaths is going to be lacking in some way or another.


    It's not the name that's the issue. It's the view of someone as a person. I didn't bring up the Holocaust to compare xBs to the mother of all real world tragedies, I brought it up because I've been to Kamp Amersfoort and stood in the 'shooting range' where the Nazis executed people for being Jewish. I could feel the horror and inhumanity of it just standing there on a bright, sunny day with literally no one else in sight and I never did learn the name of a single one of the people who died there, nor what they looked like, what their lives were like or anything else.

    Seven's mourning humanizes the xB's because they are meaningful and valuable to her, which is generally the simplest and most effective way to humanize low impact side characters in any story. This is a much better approach then just giving them each a name and a scene to showcase their personality and hoping the audience gets attached to them because storytelling throughout history has automatically conditioned us to not get attached to low-impact side characters. Trying to sell every xB to the audience individually would take up multiple episodes and probably result in most of the audience still not getting attached to them because we know ahead of time that they're not really the important characters. By contrast, Seven is a character we're already heavily invested in so seeing the xB's through her eyes and feeling her pain at their deaths is actually effective.


    Elnor follows an alien philosophy. I have no more problem with him than with Worf.

    But from a real-world 'is this how we should depict violence' standpoint, I have no problem with criticising his scenes. It's a logical complaint. What doesn't ring true for me is the idea that all of these scenes across different aspects of Picard are all the same. Elnor's approach to violence is not comparable in the slightest to the deaths of the xB's, nor to Maddox's death nor the story of the ibn Majid. It is arguably comparable to Dahj's death. There is more than one style of storytelling going on here.
     
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  15. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Okay! I surrender! Beautiful Flower is Data! :wah::rommie:
     
  16. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wouldn't go that far... :rofl:

    But seriously I think it's a theoretical possibility, but I find myself entirely undecided on what I think has the best odds of actually happening. Part of me actually enjoys the narrative potential of Beautiful Flower is Rios, but even I'm having difficulty trying to justify that one plot-wise in my head.
     
  17. Kpnuts

    Kpnuts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The fact is they made a choice to depict all the Zhat Vash in that scene as female, and I don't understand why. I mean, it's in no way a surprise, but it still made me roll my eyes. The Qowat Milat is another example of the pendulum swinging so completely the other way.
     
  18. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :rolleyes:
     
  19. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    I get what you're saying. It doesn't seem like coincidence at all, but instead it's meant to reinforce the idea that Romulan society in live-action Trek is now supposed to have been matriarchal. And the reason for that is to come across as new and reflective of what modern audiences want or expect.
    So Chabon is saying that Romulan society is matriarchal. To push that idea, we have Qowat Milat. To hammer it home we have Commodore Oh initiating a female-only group into viewing the admonition. And the more ruthless and aggresive one of the Romulan siblings being the sister, Narissa. Of Picard's Romulan housekeepers, a man and a woman, it's the woman who's the more assertive one.
    Overall, the show seems to be aware of the current social climate and is intent on flipping gender roles. The women are depicted as more aggressive and assertive. The "good guys" that give Picard a rightful dressing down are all women, with the exception of Elnor who was raised by women and is the most sensitive of the male characters we've seen. In fact when Seven comes to the rescue, Elnor, who has no problem killing and decapitating people, runs to hug her like a child running to his mother, or a damsel-in-distress running into the arms of her prince. The "bad guy" who give Picard a wrongful dressing down is a male Romulan who is swiftly beheaded.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  20. Kpnuts

    Kpnuts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well said. At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right. Trek might have been male dominated in the past, but swinging the pendulum the other way now isn't the way to go about things. Discovery is even more guilty of this. Remember Connoly being condescending towards woman and getting blown up because of his carelessness? These shows would never show a female character being idiotic or careless like that.

    I was extremely surprised Rios' former captain was male tbh. Before him the only male Starfleet officer we'd seen was the idiot receptionist who didn't recognise Picard.