Recovered after the battle. Apparently, a complex and delicate procedure that a Klingon managed to do?
What we need to consider is what makes sense. We have no evidence showing that Burnham or Saru did not want the scope left behind or that Saru carried it to the escape pod. At the same time, we know from other shows that the first thing crew members look after are the lives of those who are helpless or their own, then retrieving or rendering useless (note the "or") anything that is critical for their military organization or side (such as encryption devices and ship logs), then anything that might be used by the enemy to their advantage (such as power cores), then any personal effects that is larger than what they can put in their pockets, and then any personal effects belonging to others. And if Georgieu was a sensible person (i.e., she values the lives of her crew more than she does her belongings), she would have probably said the same. As much as one wants to insist that people in battle and who have to deal with emergencies like abandoning ships are sentimental, it is highly likely that they are more sensible, especially given trained personnel in such organizations. Given that, what is more likely is that the container was recovered after the battle, especially given the point you raised that the Klingon did not see anything else worth taking, which means Star Fleet or others were recovering various things from the abandoned ship. That also counters the argument that the power core was left or was not booby trapped because no recovery took place.
The ship was mortally wounded and had to be abandoned. Don't you remember that? My argument has nothing to do with what you wrote. Why are you now resorting to trolling? Consider the German submarine U-559 The crew failed to destroy the code books or the Enigma machine. The retrieval of the machine led to Allied code-breakers' success. Actually, what I'm saying is that this gives them all the more reason to recover the power core, or failing that, render it useless. Also, I don't understand why the ship was located inside Klingon territory. Didn't the battle take place near a Star Fleet relay? Not cold-hearted but sensible, especially given the situation in which they found themselves in. It takes a vivid imagination to argue that sentimentality trumps all that, especially given has taken place in similar events in various TV episodes and features in the franchise. That certainly applies if you still see Star Fleet personnel as as "hippie explorers." Information is not classified and encrypted only in times of war! You're incredibly naive. That makes absolutely no sense at all! Where did you get the ridiculous idea that salvage and recovery is based on clairvoyance? Wait a minute? You actually thought all along that the Federation operated primarily as a peaceful and pacifist group? LOL. Well, that is what a pacifist is. I think you're using the wrong term to describe the Feds. My understanding is that they combine scientific exploration with diplomacy and military defense. Where did you get the idea that one is either a "hippie explorer" or a sociopath? Can't you imagine characters who are between? Really, if you want to see hippie explorer, then why not refer to these characters? And don't forget to talk about Lorca and other characters from STD. Of course, it is! How do you think they got the cloaking device working? Why do you think the mining sites were attacked? You've been watching another franchise all along! My argument is based on common sense. You're the one who's been coming up with all sorts of ideas, that Saru brought along the 'scope because he's a "big boy" or that he used transporters or anti-grav devices, that Star Fleet had no reason to recover anything from the ship, and that all of these are so because they're all "hippie explorers." Good grief. So, what is the purpose of including that scene? I didn't say that it would be included at that moment. Reread what I wrote.
If they were left to drift for months in that area filled with debris, and with no one bothering to recover the power core, then that could only mean that the place was not kept secure by the Klingons or the Feds, and thus accessible to anyone to recover ship contents.
It makes sense because, as you pointed out, the Klingon stated that they found nothing else of value. That means some group managed to recover things from the ship but for some reason left the power core functioning. It's reasonable to argue that one of the places that it would go to is the captain's quarters.
Why did the Klingons ignore this system for six month when they know they have a technological advantage floating there in the sarcophagus ship?
The transporter was still working when the Sarcophagus Ship was bombed because Saru had Michael transported back. When you don't have any arguments you accuse people of trolling you ? I was just pointing out how silly you sound claiming certain elements can only be present in Star Trek if they were already depicted before. You just proved my point again. Losing the code books didn't stop the Germans being successful invading France later that year and occupying it for four years. The biggest reason they lost France was because of a massive collaboration that funneled manpower and resources into an Allied invasion. The fate of the U-559 wouldn't change D-Day. Also, the Germans getting mowed down by the Soviets helps too, I hardly doubt the few weeks of advantage the Allies had when they decrypted the communication of U-Boats back in 1940 was a game changer. So again, people just don't waste their own resources for stuff that is immaterial if compared to the big picture. If those code books were that important for the Germans, they would've wasted more resources implementing fail-safes. They had bigger fish to fry at that moment (Feb 1940) with the Finns, for example. You will really have to show us those lines talking about the Federation having a few starships. The Federation is a Post-Scarcity Society, there's no such thing as "we only have a few Starships". Maybe the line was referring to limited Starships in the region ? Again, if you think the Feds only have a few dozen ships, that's BSG not Trek. Uh, first, it was already close to the Klingon border. Second, the Feds lost. Badly. Third, Kol wandered there quite easily so it's safe to assume that's already under Klingon control. Vivid imagination, really ? Most of the reasons why people get to kill each other is because they have feelings. Having feelings means you're susceptible in making decisions that endanger yourself and others. No training, brainwashing, etc. can change that. So if Saru has feelings, he's prone to do the same mistakes Humans do. It isn't, but the technology that guarantees efficient encryption comes during times of war. The biggest jumps in technologies that can be used to harm others always do come during wartime. That's why the Atomic Bomb was developed during WWII, not before it. If the Feds aren't warmongers, then they have no reason to improve technologies better researched during times of war. That's why they were researching the Mycelial Network in Discovery, to explore not to harm others. Because the Feds most correct assumption would be that the Klingons would also evacuate their destroyed ships. They couldn't predict the Klingons would stay inside their dead ships. Yes, that's the whole point of Star Trek, actually. Again, if you enjoy warmonger humans dwelling in the stars I think a franchise better suited for you would be something like Warhammer 40000. Trek is a direct product of 1960s anti-war movements, there's nothing we can do to change that. Training for war and mounting military operations isn't "military defense". That's called provocation. I really doubt the Feds would do that in times of peace. So you think that all the people who were engaged in hippie, pacifist and anti-war movements were like those characters from The Way to Eden ? What a narrow world view. That's why we call it counter-culture. You don't have to sing love songs and hug trees everyday to embrace values of the counter-culture. Hell, Gene was a cop and he embraced the counter-culture. Most people that did back then are just normal plain folks like you and me. When I say "hippie" I say an umbrella of values and ideas that date back to 60s Leftist and Progressive movements. Star Trek Federation characters are, or at least try to be, the embodiment of that. Lorca and Landry aside, yeah, I think most DSC characters fill the hippie explorer archetype. They made terrible mistakes because of that archetype.That's the whole point of Discovery. Asking what happens when being a pacifist isn't enough, when using rationality isn't enough, when using understanding for other cultures isn't enough... When you can't just use an anthropology observation given by your Vulcan father to avoid a war. Discovery is when Star Trek values go wrong. So yeah, you can definitely have "hippie" characters who dwell in grey morality. Resource wars happen when you attack your enemy because you don't have resources enough. There's no indication that the Klingons lack Dilithium or other resources. They are attacking the Federation because of ideology, not because they need to survive. If you want to subjugate an enemy morally you need to cripple their self-sufficiency of resources, obviously. That doesn't mean you need those resources for yourself. You just need to hurt the enemy. Common sense: Obsessing over a small detail that has an obvious explanation so you can claim a TV Series you hate has bad writing. Sounds right. I mean, we're living in the Alternative Facts Era, so it kinda fits. Flow. In the beginning of the episode Michael is still reminiscing about the past and doubting herself, so she refuses the will. After the events of the episode she realizes she still is useful. So she comes back and accepts the will. It's a metaphor for Michael beginning to accept her role onboard the Discovery. In any moment a flashback like the one you described would just be horrible TV, really.
We saw in "The Vulcan Hello" that this was a friendly, almost informal bridge crew. Any of the personnel stationed on the bridge might have grabbed that telescope during the evacuation out of misplaced sentimentality. To save some tiny piece of the captain they respected. Even if there are regulations against such mementos during an evacuation, I could easily see Saru stopping a crewman carrying the telescope, then reconsidering -- again out of sentimentality -- designating the telescope a valuable piece of Starfleet technology and letting the crewman pass. Similarly, the dilithium processor could have been abandoned in place as non-sensitive tech, or simply forgotten. "I thought you got the dilithium processor!" The Shenzhou's crew had just been through a costly battle. The crew was injured, many were dead, and things would have been overlooked in anything less than the most thorough, carefully implemented evacuation. Yep, there's training. Yep there's discipline. Yep, someone could, and possibly did, get court-martialed for neglecting some artifacts. But the crew weren't automatons. They can make errors and that's all the explanation that's needed. There's no plot hole here.
Wait... we know that from other shows? When have we ever actually SEEN them put a priority on "retrieving or rendering useless" anything at all? As I've already pointed out, we have at least a DOZEN examples of starfleet straight up abandoning whole starships and not even giving a shit what happens to them after that. The only time they try to deny the enemy access to their ships and technology is when the enemy is specifically trying to use that technology against them right at that moment. I vividly recall Picard and Riker wandering around on the bridge of the Enterprise-D trying to find Picard's favorite book... what I DO NOT recall is their making sure to have wiped the computer core or stripped down any useable technology from the ship first. In fact, at least two Trek novels depict a Starfleet salvage team returning to the Enterprise-D half a year later to accomplish that job, and then it's implied to be a special case because the people on Veridian III are starting to dabble in rocketry and could be getting into spaceflight some day. And in "Timeless" Starfleet apparently knew the location of Voyager's crash site, but felt it was more important to prevent its former officers from using it to alter the past than it was to go and clean up the wreck, hence USS Challenger doesn't bother to sanitize the Voyager's crash site at all and is singularly interested in intercepting the Delta Flyer. I mean, unless you cam think of a more concrete example, I think you're arguing a contradiction with something that Starfleet has never actually done. I almost think you're confusing Starfleet with the UNSC's "Cole Protocol" or something. Considering they didn't even bother to abandon ship until WELL AFTER the battle was long over, it doesn't seem like they were in all that much of a hurry to begin with. The ship was disabled and without power, warp drive and impulse engines all dead, the ship running on just batteries and good intentions. They probably waited until their batteries ran out and life support was totally dead, at which point Saru said "Fuck it, we're leaving" and they piled into escape pods. How long do the emergency batteries last on a starship? I don't actually know. Days, maybe? Possibly longer if they were being careful. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that they didn't abandon ship in the middle of a full blown emergency; the battle was over, T'Kuvma was dead, his ship was wrecked and powerless and the Klingon Fleet had run off to do its own thing. If their engines had been slightly less damaged, they wouldn't even bother with the escape pods, they would have just limped to the nearest starbase on impulse power.
Because they didn't think the cloak was much of an advantage. They probably thought it was a showy gimmick that had little strategic value at all. I doubt anyone in the Klingon military other than Kol ever understood its true potential. I doubt even Starfleet understood it until Kol started bitch slapping them left and right with it.
What on earth are you talking about? The Germans lost U-boat U-559 and it’s Enigma code books in 1942. The Germans successfully invaded France in 1940. It’s common knowledge that the captured Enigma material they retrieved was immensely valuable and helped turn the tide of war in the Allies' favor.
But that implies that the evacuation took place slowly, which means they would have had time to disable the power core. But everything I've raised so far are arguments. Also, I don't think I argued that certain events can only happen if they were depicted before. Rather, certain events may happen because they were depicted before. Germany did not invade France after losing the code books. Enigma as part of Ultra helped in stopping Rommel in North Africa and determining Axis defenses in France prior to D-Day. The Germans didn't know that the code was broken. Probably in the region, but that's what I remember. But that would have not mattered, as it is rational to scuttle what the enemy might find useful. Thus, it's not exactly in Klingon territory. The Feds did lose, but the Sacrophogus was stranded in the area for months, which implies that the Klingons had little control in the area. Feelings leading to killing others is not sentimentality. Being prone to do something does not mean it is more likely. The fact that you refer to mistakes proves that, unless you believe that for this franchise characters making mistakes is more the norm than the exception. And yet we have armed ships prior to war, which you now imply did not feel the need to protect information that they transmitted to each other. And why's that? Because they're hippies, right? That's a ridiculous assumption, unless you are saying this because that's the only thing that reinforces your view that Starfleet personnel are hippies. That certainly explains why you keep referring to clairvoyance. And yet the ships are armed. There's a reason why "military operations" and "military defense" have the word "military" in them. I'll let you figure out why. A hippie is a part of a counter-culture. I'm guessing that you used the term to describe Trek because GR brought in interracial love, criticized events like the Vietnam War indirectly, etc. But the same franchise also had armed personnel in armed ships and worked with businesses such as mining groups to supply the fleet with resources. Those are part of mainstream societies, not counter-cultures. Completely the opposite, as clearly seen in STD and this very thread. I'll let you figure out why. I wasn't referring to what causes resource wars. That's what I was talking about. Now that you agree with me on that, you should now reconsider your view that the whole show is simply about some hippie archetype. Believe me, it's not just that. To find out by yourself, re-read what you wrote above and consider many other ways in which you can hurt the enemy. To help you along the way, I offer my previous posts. I wasn't obsessing over a small detail: you were. I'm merely responding to each point that you raised. But if you want more examples of bad writing in STD, then read the other threads about each episode. It was not for her to decide whether or not she should see herself as useful given the fact that she was sentenced to life in prison and was released from it only because Lorca found a use for her. Well, there's news that Yeoh is coming back to the show.
From what I remember, it was placed in a container together with a will, to be given to the mutineer. And yet they managed not to overlook the telescope? Or the telescope with the container and the will?
Well, doesn't that also imply that they also left the telescope? Perhaps when they abandon ship, there's a ship-wide mechanism that disables critical components, similar to what a car immobilizer does. Of course, that would have made the power core useless. It's not so much a matter of sanitizing a crash site but to prevent anyone from using particular devices, and one can imagine that taking place automatically as the crew abandons ship. That might not even mean recovery but simply disabling or using booby traps. All I'm using is common sense. If the crew had the discipline to bring along a telescope of their dead commander (plus a container and a will with instructions to give them to the mutineer?), then they very likely had the discipline to simply disable a power core. Or a team would have done as they recovered the telescope (or is it a telescope in a container with a will and instructions to give them to the mutineer?). Why would they wait? Or hours? Or given the level of damage, perhaps minutes?
You're right. I confused the year it was laid down with the year it was destroyed. So @ralfy 's argument makes even less sense. In October 1942 the Germans were locked down in massive battles with the Allies in North Africa. The Germans and Soviets were in the middle of the Battle of Stalingrad, by that time the Germans were still winning it. They had even more colossal fish to fry, I still don't know why they would waste resources to protect U-Boats with some codes when they had so many other important things to do. Hmmm... If they never cracked those codes, the Nazis would've won WWII ? Sure, it was an important thing. It may have saved a lot of lives and that's good. But I really doubt the codes were the reason why the Soviets pushed back after Stalingrad and basically won the War, for example. At the end of the day raw things like manpower and resources matter more. The Nazis lost in the Eastern Front because they lacked that. Not because they lacked codes. And disabling the core implies that the Federation cares about disabling power cores after evacuating ships. They don't. You said they can't use anti-gravs to move personal effects around while evacuating the ship, because everytime we saw people evacuating ships in Star Trek they were empty handed. See my response to @Captain of the USS Averof above. I confused the years. Still, North Africa was lost to the Germans because the Nazis couldn't funnel resources and manpower enough there. They were fighting two very distant fronts, remember ? I think it's just silly when people use side details like codes or things like the great man theory to explain entire wars. Just look both Battles of El Alamein, for example. The Allies had the superiority in numbers on those. No, but they could've wasted more resources beforehand trying to protect those codes. There's a hundred ways they could've implemented fail safes but they didn't care. They were more concerned with bigger things. People tried to explain to you already, scuttling makes sense when you want to avoid your ship being used against your crew or someone capturing them. Like you just admitted, the Federation had no shortage of Starships. They couldn't care less about these things. They took some time to recover the Sarcophagus Ship because that was an area already under their control and that had no risk of going back to the Federation. They concerned themselves with the war first and then went there to retrieve the cloaking technology. If they "had little control" over the area, why Kol wandered there so easily, with no major challenges ? People acting of their own passions can do very horrible stuff, endanger others and commit terrible mistakes. Are you sure... You're a fellow Human ? Because that's Humanity 101. "Being prone to fight silly wars over nothing doesn't mean these wars are likely" said every person before every major war on Human history. What ? The franchise is about Humans and Humans being faulty when compared to non-sentimental species like the Vulcans is a major theme throughout Star Trek... Yeah, the Federation has it's own NSA. Sure, that's so Star Trek right ? I bet those planets who are interested in joining the Federation get so thrilled by discovering that Federation is sending back home so many encrypted information about them. One thing is encrypting small info, what you are implying here the Federation having top of the line encrypting tech that is generally only common in war time or when you feel the need of being a little bit Orwellian. The whole point of Star Trek is that this is not an Orwellian future. I mean, you were the one implying the Shenzhou had ESPers onboard who could predict the Klingons would not evacuate. So what ? Are you implying gun owners are psychopaths ready to kill everyone just because they have guns ? Guns are ultimately a self-defense tool, it doesn't talk about your character and it doesn't stop you from believing in peace. Implementing stuff that can take down missiles and having anti-aircraft batteries on your own territory is military defense. Military operations are things like military exercises next to enemy territory, proxy conflicts, interventions, etc. Just because something has "military" in the name it doesn't mean it's bad. So hippies, yippies, yuppies, whoever you call those related to counter-culture movements, are against mining and self-defense? That doesn't make any sense. Material conditions and Culture are two separate spheres. You can still mine, defend yourself, etc. and believe in a certain set of cultural values. Stamets entire life is centered around mushrooms and their interactions with physics, Burnham spent her entire life trying to join a Vulcan Expeditionary Group, Tilly wants to be a Starship Captain and Saru wants to be as great as a Federation Founder like Archer. Those are very Star Trek-ish characters. Those characters are characters who had "improving themselves", like Picard said, as their main goals. Self-improvement is a very 1960s New Age thing. The only characters concerned with mundane things seem to be Lorca and Landry. See how everyone else is thrilled by having a Space Whale onboard and Lorca couldn't give two shits about it. You implied things like Dilithium Cores captured from the Feds are essential for the Klingons when they actually are self sufficient on Dilithium. If anything, this proves my point even more. The Klingons wanted to hurt the Federation morally. The Klingons are the enemies, remember ? They aren't supposed to have beautiful progressive ideals like the Feds. They were the ones attacking Federation Dilithium Mines, not the other way around. If the Feds weren't a bunch of Leftist Space Explorers they would be the ones coming up with the idea of attacking Klingon Dilithium Mines first. The Federation is not fighting a war of expansion, annexation and occupation. They are fighting a war of self-defense. I hardly doubt those Admirals salivate with the idea of occupying Qo'nos and implementing a puppet government there. Lorca probably does, but that's the point of his character. The Feds just want to defend their coalition and go back to exploring strange new worlds. Oh, but I do. And it's always the same stuff that you're doing here. If the small detail has an easy explanation like "the evacuees took the thing with them", people who hate-watch Discovery come up with weird fan fictions to explain how the entire show is plagued with plot holes and that this time Star Trek is definitely dead. That's basically it. It has been hard for some people to accept that after some years we finally have a Star Trek series with tidy writing again, so they need to come up with "Han Solo shot first" scenarios to dispel that. She could've sat on her ass and do nothing like she was planning to do when she first refused Lorca's proposal. So she definitely had control over being useful or not.
Exactly this. Resources matter. That’s why you never leave any resources for the enemy. You never leave anything to the enemy period! You either destroy it yourself or you boobytrap it so you can kill as many of the enemy you can when they inevitably come to search/salvage/retrieve it.
I meant the raw stuff. I meant the coal from the Saar. Iron from Norway. Oil from Romania. The resources that matter. They weren't enough to counter the resources the Soviet Union already had before the war. The Russians in five years went from a Rural country to an Industrial power exactly because of that. They had the upper hand in resources like Iron, Oil, Natural Gas, Cement, Coal, etc. since the beginning. That's why the Germans lost. Not because the Germans failed to salvage gasoline from abandoned Soviet Tanks. I mean, even when the Soviets tried to not leave anything behind they were more concerned about destroying important things like bridges, factories, crops, etc. They weren't that concerned with the ammo Private Ivan forgot somewhere or the leftover fuel from some vehicle they had to abandon.
And yet they absolutely were concerned about leaving anything to the enemy. Especially leftover ammo or fuel from some abandoned vehicle. Because in war it was certain that what they couldn’t destroy they would have to face it...