How many people before it becomes wrong?, Star Trek Insurrection

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by marsh8472, Dec 31, 2016.

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How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?

  1. 1 person

    48.5%
  2. 5 people

    3.0%
  3. 30 people

    3.0%
  4. 100 people

    3.0%
  5. 200 people

    3.0%
  6. 600 people

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. 1,000 people

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 50,000 people

    9.1%
  9. 1,000,000 people

    30.3%
  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, I find the non-indigenous nature of the Baku highly relevant, because to me, at least, that's the difference between them being innately what they are, and them just being the people lucky enough to find the planet before anyone else.

    For a group that implicitly makes claims of moral righteousness, they're notably silent on the subject of what they think should occur once the Federation finds their Fountain of Youth.

    If I find the Cure for Cancer today and decide to keep it to myself, do I have that right? How about if I find it but keep it a secret for a year first? Two years? Five years? A dozen? Three hundred? And how many people will suffer indirectly from my silence in the process?

    Let's put this in stark terms: the Baku knew they were sitting on a secret that could help millions, and they sat on it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
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  2. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the nature of this discovery is quite relevant. If the US discovered immortality, and held it from the world, I can see the world ready to go to war over it. This isn't exactly finding gold.

    I agree that the Baku not being from the planet lowers their claim, but ultimately, something that big not being shared would lead to war.
     
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  3. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's possible, even likely, that the Son'a returned to their ancestral homeworld to find a wreck, glowing in the dark, full of mutated savages that were all that was left of a once vast and highly developed civilization. Remember, the Ba'ku left to flee the lasting effects of a world war.

    The Son'a life prolongation experiments were begun not as some means of replicating what Miri's people attempted, but at preventing the extinction of the native population, and Ru'afo decided to see what happened to a non-mutated member of his species, resulting ultimately in what we saw the Son'a to have become.

    The attempt to wrest the rejuvenative effects from the Ba'ku, costing the Ba'ku their benefit in the process, may have been a last-ditch effort to save the homeworld population, by then reduced to mere thousands, with more dying every day.(Don't you love speculation?)
     
  4. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Baku are assholes. :)

    I do wonder if the Enterprise crew are actually being manipulated somehow. Not necessarily just in the oh-poor-us B.S. story the Baku feed them, but maybe something to do with the properties of the 'fountain of youth' is affecting their judgement/behaviour. In some parts, the way they act out of character resembles the polywater virus from "The Naked Now", particularly that scene where Riker and Troi are all over each other in the library instead of focusing on their job. Maybe the same mystical hoo-hah that is making them all regress is making them goofy as well, which the likes of Anji are more than willing to exploit. I just keep getting the feeling throughout the movie that the crew don't know their own minds.

    Either way, the Baku are assholes. :D ;)
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I know I've brought this up multiple times, but I also think it's a compelling and lingering question: if the Baku were able to force the Son'a offworld in the past, presumably through technological means of some sort, why do they need the Federation's help against the Son'a now? At best, they simply don't have the technology anymore or have regressed and can't operate it (fair enough), or perhaps the Son'a have neutralized said tech in some manner. At worst, they're outright manipulating the Federation (well, parts of it) into fighting their battles for them.

    That the question never even gets asked though, once the relationship between the two races is revealed, strikes me as a significant oversight.
     
  6. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    About that "ten years" thing. The real story is probably along the lines of the Son'a would need ten years of exposure to the particles to look as young as they did when they left, and Ru'afo is at a point that he doesn't want to wait that long. That his alternate methods no longer work merely adds to his frustration.
     
  7. cgervasi

    cgervasi Commander Red Shirt

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    If the Baku truly own it, it should be up them. All those people who would be helped by the medicine created by destroying the Baku's planet should be able to put together a fortune to offer those 600 people in exchange for their planet. It seems like such an offer plus an appeal on humanitarian grounds ought to get them to sell their planet. Or they could work out some kind of deal to extract some longevity medicine without destroying the planet.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or they could leave the planet and prove they're as morally righteous as they act throughout the film.
     
  9. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This might be a resent inability, a result of their advanced age and ill health. Prior to that the Sona could have created multiple generations of little Sona.

    The Federation is on the side of the Sona, it's Picard and his one ship that's helping the Baku.

    Why the Baku don't employ their anti-Sona machine is one of the movie's little mysteries.
    I think it was ten years to just save the Sona's lives, getting young probably would take longer.
     
  10. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral

    The Vulcans would, yes, after going through logical procedures and channels.

    The Baku didn't mind kicking out their parents (the Sona), which led to the Sona going after technology and slaves to extend their lives... The Baku also seem to be a bit snooty, not in a good way, and even the 1701-D beige bridge has more color and character than the entire Baku village. Neither Baku nor Sona were worth cheering for, or perhaps both were worth cheering for if they would all just become guests on the Jerry Springer show and have Steve keep them at bay, is that hollow little circus show still on the air?

    But the truth is toward the middle, but the movie doesn't want to bother. It wants to preach in favor of the Baku, citing historical acts a little too conveniently while going out of its way to prevent other considerations from being addressed:

    The crux of it all, "move 600 people to help billions", was addressed very feebly at best and quickly poised to make the Sona and Federation to be mustache-twirl caricature vaudeville villains. It contradicts a lot of TOS, especially "the needs of the many". The numbers used in the movie to justify Picard's point of view were meant to be a bold stance and I can understand that. The problem is, too many ambient factors ruin the credibility and nothing is really said to up the tension for the need of the Baku village to be where it was. As I remember, the rings and planet all had the magical effect. Not the one tiny patch of land. I believe I recall some throwaway dialogue but it didn't do anything to make the audience believe the situation. But at the time of this writing, Trek Wiki-like resources say nothing about a special part of the land. Just the rings in the Briar Patch. Plenty of space exists for all. Do what Mr. Howell did and set up the a hotel. Immediate problem solved. At least for all save for the Sona...

    ...The movie does use technobabble to explain why the Sona can't build a colony elsewhere on the planet. Would take way too long for any effects to be noticed; ten years is claimed. Slight problem, here: It's hard to believe it would take that long for them to get effects when Picard and crew (that have no biological similarity to the Baku)experience results nearly instantly. At the movie's start, Worf has already gone back to puberty! Not too long into the movie and Geordi can see a sunset, which also happens to be one of the film's highlights since the scene was done so beautifully (it's a shame the rest of the movie wasn't). Since Geordi was blind as a condition that goes back to his first moment of existence, and senescence starts to kick in humans in the 30s or so, Geordi's now in his 40s, but he can now see clearly and perfectly and with little violins chirping up the mood in the background. It's a stretch to say it'll take forever to show relief to the Sona. Never mind others in the Federation if they move to Gilligan's Hotel for a day or two. So the magic must work better for humans than the Sona/Baku species? But it does explain the time it takes for a child to grow into puberty and then *ding* the magic magically kicks in? So it's ultimately counted as a coincidence. The movie makes so many assumptions while showing people having immediate effects that I don't believe it would take a decade for the Sona to see effects.

    Even more bunk is how children can grow normally until after puberty and then it all magically sets in.

    Even "The Mark of Gideon" had a more coherent script, which is why the issue of population wasn't brought up in INS, I'd wager...

    The Prime Directive is used as a defense, but the planet wasn't really made for people to move there to break the laws of nature to begin with?

    One thing I read from a review site and I wish I picked up on it at the time - once anyone leaves the region to gossip, the Baku's privacy is gone. (Here's where my thinking starts to come in about repercussions to Picard's hormonal overdrive for his love interest: So more ships, from other species, whose warp nacelles may disrupt the fabric of space may appear and render the place worthless for their magic rings. Marauders far worse than what the Federation (and Sona) are (wrongly) made out to be could collect and refine the radiation into something useful... Picard shouldn't have bothered with his myopia, which the magic radiation didn't fix.)

    And, of course, when the crew leave the region all of the rejuvenation effects and new eyes and everything all go away just as quickly so it's more than just a ringed planet with a concentration of special radiation. Which, once again, does more to fortify Starfleet's cause by accident, if not for rendering the whole movie mostly pointless. The 600 people are nothing more than glorified test subjects for a drug that could, if refined and stabilized, help untold billions ease suffering or be healed (it's just as easy to say that after x doses of the refined radiation one can't use it anymore, the movie didn't really say it wanted to make everyone in Starfleet immortal).

    The writers were onto a good idea but the execution and parallels were horrendous and a little too one-sided. Especially as all we see are yet another group of white people with blue hair and blond eyes or whatever the stereotype description is. Like that other renowned intentioanlly-racist episode, "Justice". Since even Picard once said how history tends to be altered by one side over another, INS is too quick to rely on one side over another. Such examples include facts like white slaves and black slaveowners, both of which existed in slave-time America and in previous civilizations as well - but that quickly demolishes most current memes as well. INS is not excepted. Quite the contrary since it relies on such its oversimplified viewpoints that also seem disposable for being the big themes of a movie.

    Even the poster and tag line were lame copycats from Star Trek VI. Oops. Franchise cannibalizing itself already. No wonder a scene in the movie is dedicated to the bulleted checklist of Borg and Dominion and everyone else, the movie seems a little too self-aware, especially when the "E" never went to DS9. :(

    And all that is all sad because the direction is fantastic - Frakes outdid himself. The music has a lot of great moments. The actors are all excellent choices. F Murray Abraham rose above his scenes and made Ru'Afo far more compelling. Anthony Zerbe loves playing roles where his head gets popped like a pimple (don't watch "Licence to Kill" unless you want to see what happens, eww.) There's nary a bad performance. But the script? First draft quality at best. It needed fine-tuning, not overstretching.
     
  11. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of good points...but I feel I should mention it comes down to executive meddling , in a large part from Patrick Stewart. The script is less a first draft quality, and more one that is well out the other side. Too many cooks and star power (same as Nemesis.) Interesting point you raise about the casting and slave history...non angli sed Angeli and all that. Thank you for pointing out the positives in direction and casting...it's a shame this and Thunderbirds stalled Frake career.
     
  12. publiusr

    publiusr Admiral Admiral

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  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not seeing the relationship.
     
  14. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hmmm...public consensus seems to be 351.929 people before it becomes wrong.

    At least, that's the current average of the poll (assuming I made no error).
     
  15. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, if 351.929 is what makes it wrong, how about removing 351? That would leave 249 people. So what would be the acceptable waiting period between getting rid of them?
     
  16. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's a decimal point. You left an amputee behind.
     
  17. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wanted to be within the margin of error.
     
  18. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Right. I'm sorry. Should have written 351,929 but unconsciously slipped up because in my native language, usage of , and . in numbers is exactly the other way around (, as decimal point, . for thousands).
     
  19. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Really? What language is that? You learn something new.

    Ok, so if 351929 is the correct number before it's wrong, then Picard was in the wrong and we were good.

    It's been long enough since I've seen Insurrection that I actually have forgotten a lot of details, so to spare myself the cruel and unusual punishment of watching it again, was it determined that the planet actually DID help people, or was that help just limited to the Baku. I may be confusing this movie with the superior novel Ashes of Eden, which had a similar plot.
     
  20. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but the Baku supposedly settled the planet long before the Federation even came into existence. Humans were barely in space then, if I'm not mistaken.

    There was no explanation of why or how the Federation thinks they own the planet. Based on this, the Federation is the one to have to answer some tough questions.
     
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