Poll Is Q Right About Troi?

She was a shrink on a Starship. Ya gotta take a few insults.

 

Q's line is one of his funniest lines in the entire series. In a normal social situation, it would be rude to reveal a person's private feelings like that.

 

What you just described is thought policing. I find that pretty tyrannical

But it should better prepare you for how to react. As a therapist, she should be able to maintain some kind of dispassionate view, especially if she has spent a lifetime under the constant bombardment of feeling what others feel. What O'Brien felt, while probably ugly, should not be so alien as to shock her into uncontrolled gawking, followed by obligatory shame staring

And I'd define that as normal human behavior. Having bad feelings is just as valid as having goods ones, & certainly aren't always worthy of being subject to the pressures of outside scrutiny or psychoanalysis. Dude had some issues, which he kept bottled up some, and after coming face to face with it, and after bouncing some of his weak BS off his wife, realized he might need to reevaluate himself. Had Troi never even been there, I don't expect him to have handle this or himself any differently. It was maybe one of the most normal reactions of any character on TNG ever

None of which I would use to describe O'Brien at that moment, & more importantly, no you shouldn't, least of all, when you don't have a clue what's going on with the person you're dealing with. Hell, that's the biggest problem with people today. It's just so damn easy to shame when we think we got someone we can make an example of, when ultimately maybe the easy thing isn't what we should be trying to do, because it isn't always as simple as black/white, right/wrong etc... Maybe we ought to get to the "Why" of the matter, instead of just treating a person like they're a dog that needs its nose rubbed in the crap it took on the carpet

Honestly, one of the coolest things about these poll results is how many people voted that it's not as simple as yes or no. There's pretty much a dead heat on all the answers in the poll right now. I find that interesting

But he didn't voice anything, & frankly, as a counselor, if this was enough of a concern that she felt she should stare him into a shamed submission, then why end it there, & walk away, leaving it to still be a potential concern? Shame tactics should not be a tool of the ship's counselor, if in fact this was a concern that she thought required her professional intervention. No, she wasn't willing to consider this a strong enough concern to press further. So she walked away. Picard's made her walk away here & there too, & maybe she should be rethinking how she got herself into those positions, where someone is not receptive to her methods

but if you'd spent your life angling to have your sight be an advantage over people who didn't have it? I'd probably not feel all that bad if you ended up without it as well. I'm not cruel enough to call it just desserts, but maybe walking a mile in the other guy's shoes wasn't the worst thing to happen to your ego

What I find very interesting about that exchange is how she may well be completely misreading the thing. Riker says he's sure of himself. Troi says he isn't, but ultimately what he may be unsure of is the tactics being successful, which is not the same thing as not being sure of himself. The man had already voiced the concern that there was almost no chance anything would prevent this mission going bad on them. He said exactly that to Picard. He expects this mission to fail, & he's doing the only thing he can do that MIGHT save it. Of course he's unsure of that, but to wear that around for all to see, decreases its chances even more, and in this scene, Troi undermines his position by implying he's not steady minded about himself & what he's doing. Of course he is, but he's unsure of how it will all go down, because no one can predict the future. Thanks for bringing that up. I almost forgot about that one

 

Let's not forget that we're not talking about civilians in a private setting... we're talking about professionals in a military setting. "Keeping tabs," as JirinPanthosa said, on the mental state of the crew is pretty important. The position that Troi's extra sense is somehow invalid or inappropriate to use because it doesn't fit into our own conception of senses is a bit narrow. If you had seen or heard some sign that a person with PTSD was being triggered, or that may be a symptom of some undiagnosed mental illness/trauma was manifesting itself, wouldn't you -- as ship's counselor -- want to keep tabs on it too? Or if it wasn't mental at all, but some evidence of physical illness, like pale sweaty skin, if you were the ship's doctor, wouldn't you keep tabs on it?

I think part of the challenge here is in accepting that contemporary notions of privacy don't fit in an environment where different people and species with different abilities coexist. Ditto for a military environment that has a somewhat narrower set of rights than would a civilian environment.

I suppose if this happened in her office during a counseling session, I would agree. She would have had ample time to prepare for her appointment, know what she was dealing with, and put on her professional demeanor. But strolling out of the transporter room, focused on the mission at hand, and the suddenly shaken from that focus by an onslaught of emotion? I just can't get myself worked up over that. It seemed to be a perfectly natural reaction.

Maybe. But let's not forget the background. TNG is very much Gene Roddenberry's version of Star Trek, and in his universe, human beings are supposed to have outgrown much of what we would today define as being "normal." Seen through that prism, it's easy to understand that O'Brien was written as injured/damaged/broken in some way -- thus setting up Troi's reaction.

And had there not been an ongoing crisis with many moving parts demanding her immediate attention -- hunting down the Phoenix, dealing with the Cardassians, trying to prevent a war, and so on -- Troi might very well have tried to help Miles deal with his issues (and maybe even did sit down with him after the crisis was averted). But as it turns out, he was able to reconcile the matter on his own within the scope of events (a storyline that I was glad to see in this episode), but the thesis clear: O'Brien did have a problem.

I'm not going to touch this one with a 10-foot pole here. But it might make for an interesting discussion in The Neutral Zone forum.

I'm one of the ones that votes that it's not as simple as yes or no. There are too many factors to consider in each individual case.

No, he didn't voice anything that could be heard by our five senses. But he sure did voice something that could be heard by people with empathic (and presumably telepathic) abilities. That we couldn't hear it doesn't mean it didn't happen, any more than signing an expletive toward a blind person wouldn't mean it didn't happen because he couldn't see it.

Moreover, who knows if Troi left it there or not. As I noted above, the Enterprise was rather busy at the moment trying to prevent a war, hunt down one of their own ships commanded by a rogue captain, deal with Cardassian "guests" on board, and so on. Once the crisis was over, maybe Troi and O'Brien did sit down to have a few chats. Maybe she ordered him to. Maybe he voluntarily sought her out after coming to his own conclusions for a checkup or, having realize the depth of his problem, to try to deal with it finally.

I will concede that shame shouldn't be a tool of the ship's counselor. I agree with that point absolutely, and in that capacity, she was wrong. I still contend that she is a person first, was probably caught off guard by the intensity of O'Brien's emotions, and had no time to deal with it right then and there.

I don't think she spent her life angling to have an advantage over other people. She's devoted her life to helping others and serving the Federation -- free of charge, mind you. That hardly strikes me as a malicious act. You could probably make that case for Devinoni Ral, who used his natural abilities specifically to manipulate and undermine others, but not for Deanna Troi.

It's entirely possible that the situation may have been misread, and even though it assumes Troi isn't very adept in her abilities, I'll concede the point. What you and I are absolutely in agreement on is that it was inappropriate for her to be discussing the captain's mental state with his subordinates. Outside of an official attempt to relieve Jellico, complete with a psychiatric evaluation showing him to be unfit for duty, her comments did nothing but undermine her captain's ability to command. Rude, no. Stupid, unprofessional, and dangerous, yes.

ETA: Completely off topic, but I really liked Captain Jellico, and would have loved to see a Star Trek series centered around a CO with his style. In a way, he was a lot more Kirk-like than any other officer we ever saw on TNG. Publicly confident, privately introspective, no-nonsense, a brilliant tactician ready to take risks.

 

Q is always right!

In each and every situation!

I just love that character!

 

Then say something. "You know Miles, I'm kind of busy right now, but we should really talk about that" That she didn't do that, raises so many more questions, that it makes me doubt her, & we all know that her abilities are worth doubting a LOT. lol

Narrower, but yet... because this is Star Trek, we're to believe more progressive and liberal as well. We're supposed interpret this way of life as being evolved from who we are now, & honestly, I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of thought policing, even in a hierarchical collective command structure (As the Cytheriens put it lol) if we're to consider this an evolved way of life. It's not just about privacy, it's about context. What judgement can you make of a thought or feeling of mine, unless you have been or have to be me? She ain't that mystifying of a wizard at her job imho

Yeah, I see what you're saying & I'm not dismissing it fully, but you're the one saying this is a military or job setting wherein she has a right to be working the crew at any time she deems fit. We disagree there some, but even still, we ought to admit that she has an obligation to accord herself as if she's in her office all the time, when on the job. I'm not saying that's entirely realistic either. People are people, but even after she had her initial moment of shock, she more appropriately should've either remarked about it, because it was worth addressing, or not drawn attention to it at all. That would've been the appropriate way to treat a person imho. It's not just an issue of being prepped as a professional. she's been an empath her whole life. Being put off guard should hopefully not be still capable of causing her trip-ups like that. I guess it's possible though, but kind of suspect

I sort of get what you're saying there... that maybe in the context of being evolved folks, this kind of emotion from him might be more unexpected, but these humans still go to war. They can't really be so far away from us that it's an alien prism

Nope. I disagree. He didn't have a problem. He had feelings. You're allowed to have those, & stable minded folks can admit they have them & address them, all on their own. Which is what he did

And I put that choice in the poll specifically because I too recognize the realistic & fantasy variables at play. I may have a position, but I knew that certainly there'd be people who had other perspectives

I don't buy that analogy. He didn't DO anything. She jumped into his head for a moment. Think of Beverly in Attached, wherein Picard, a man she's known for ages, hadn't known how often she had acerbic remarks passing through her head. It's not our thoughts or internal reactions that we should be judged upon. It's our actions & behavior. Even they got to recognize that by the end of that episode

I'd say maybe that's true, if in fact she is required to sit down with all the crew for regular counseling, but I've seen no evidence of that. Crew go to her when they feel they need to, or when others feel they ought to. She doesn't have annual fitness evals like Crusher, to my knowledge. Given the outcome of this episode, I'd say it's easily as likely that they didn't need to drudge it up in a session. Isn't it pretty clear he has dealt with this himself in as healthy a way as she could ever offer him? It's Maxwell who's got a problem, or Picard's Captain Ahab impression in 1st Contact

Not using it as an advantage? I don't know about that. Consider The Drumhead.

Isn't that indictment of himself also a reflection on & perhaps an indictment of Troi as well? Look, Clearly she isn't as misguided as Satie's bloodhound, or as self serving as Devinoni Ral. Overall, she's a really good person, but that doesn't mean some of her behavior couldn't step over the line on occasion

And this is the fine point of my position. One of the chief criticisms of the TNG crew, (Which even as a big fan, I can concede to) is that at times they come off really morally judgmental, inclusive or exclusionary to anyone outside their nuclear family. Riker displays it quite a lot, & Bev too. It's much harder to spot in Troi, because of her nature, but this aspect is the epicenter of it imho. It's something worthy of saying "You know.... I don't know if I like that so much"

Let's just call it inappropriate then, which would mean it could also be inappropriate at other less crucial times as well, rude... questionable... uncool... unfair. You pick the adjective

There's been whole discussions about how adept or rather vague her abilities are. I see it being entirely possible she couldn't differentiate between a man who is putting on a front because he's unsure of the outcome of what he must do, vs being unsure of the choice he's made to do it. That's a very subtle difference. I don't doubt for a second that he's sure the things he's chosen to do are the right things. He's just not sure that anything, (Even those rightest of things he's chosen) will give the desired result. This is a lady who couldn't even fully get a bead on Rassmussen "He's hiding something" Well, that's useful, lady. lol

She knows she's playing a hunch a lot of the time, & that she walked away from O'Brien gave me the impression it was not something she was concrete on. That being the case, I'm of the opinion its not something she should have shamed him about

 

Second on that. I'm a lot more fond of Jellico in recent times than when I first saw him in TNG reruns as a kid...I honestly don't see the hate some fans got for him for doing his job. I'm more appalled Riker and gang are uncomfortable with something they should have expected in the first place.

And yes, what Troi did was quite unprofessional. Unintentional it may be but seriously, don't fuel tensions by giving the crew more reason to not trust their judgement on the CO.

I first thought she did it because even she was starting to feel annoyed of Jellico's command structure, once he ordered her to wear a proper uniform (which to me was the best move Jellico and by extension the show has done for Troi)

 

Don't even get me started on that subject lol but I'll err on the side of her not being so petty as that. She's much more likely just a loose cannon with that brain burgling, & loose lips sink ships, you know? After all, she's not exactly the most command minded officer in the group. If she'd taken any longer to pass that commanders exam, Data would've had daisies growing out of him

 

Haha, but yeah. Troi shouldn't take the blame for that though unprofessional it was. She is just being honest to someone she can confide in during rather tense negotiations, as she would to anyone on the Enterprise.

It's just a tad unfortunate that she told Riker, who probably lowered his expectations of Jellico even more after that.

But really, the Jellico issue is more like Starfleet rushing in before both sides of the party can reach a proper understanding. Troi may have made the tensions between Riker and Jellico a bit more tense, but she probably didn't think it would lead to something.

But overall, I did like how Troi did show she has what it takes to be part of the crew later on...Then the movies kinda didn't know what to do with her as with everyone else that's not Picard or Data.

 

And for the record, I'm not a Troi hater, nor do I think she's a bad officer or a bad person in any way. She has come through a lot of times to help people. Believe it or not, I actually like Troi a lot more than either Riker or Crusher. I can't stand her mom, & loathe the fact that so many of her episodes revolved around that, but on the whole, I do think it's quite possible that she exhibits some pretty evident moral superiority, due to both her position, & her unique nature among the crew

As douchey as it might've been to throw it in her face at that moment in The Loss, Riker, of all people, says it pretty plainly

 

I actually hadn't thought about this before...a simple scene and yet a lot to think about.
O'Brien is entitled to feel what he feels and goddam Troi if it doesn't suit her.Very unprofessional on her behalf and in the long run by demonstrating her abilities in this way,ultimately self undermining.Had Miles had any counselling after his war service I wonder...not very effective counselling judging by his reaction to the Cardies.

 

Hmm, this does bode an interesting question of what kind of training Starfleet gives to various other societies regarding their species ability and customs. In the sense of what measure should these things be acceptable from well within standards to completely unprofessional when working with others who are most likely not from the same society of their homeworld.

 

O'Brien didn't fake a transporter accident though did he?
In fact he undertook a very risky transport over to Maxwell's ship to ultimately save Cardassian lives.O'Brien has never been less than an honourable man despite the traumas he has endured.
For Troi to attempt to shame him(for feelings he came by in the course of a war)is the dishonourable act.
There is a certain haughtiness about the Troi character anyway IMO,part of all that "third house"guff I suppose.Look how easily she adopted to the Tal Shiar persona.

 

Watch it again.
She stares him down until he looks away.
The guy is entitled to the privacy of his own thoughts surely?

 

If you imagine a ship with a majority of personnel having telepathic abilities, it might be downright paralyzing to a person with no such ability placed in that environment. Starfleet had been known to have crews of all one species before, with the Intrepid manned by all Vulcans. I'd think it might pose all kinds of problems for crew relations if there were a vast mix telepaths tossed in with nontelepaths. That's a rough working environment imho. I'd like to think they get some training on how to coexist, but when I see moments like this, I can't think it had much good

What you're describing is public humiliation. All there need be for shaming to occur is for someone to directly condemn another, in some way.

By her staring at him, to the point that it would be clear to him she had read his emotion, she is deliberately wanting him to know she's in there judging it. She didn't know he'd turn away in shame. Maybe she thought it was worth doing, in order to gauge the response. If he'd spouted "Who do you think you're looking at, Lady?" then I'm sure she'd have gotten enough validation to pursue it, but because he recoiled in shame, she knew he got the message that she found it abhorrent, and she could go on about her day at least knowing it's been made clear to him that he shouldn't allow himself that feeling

But the truth is, if it isn't bad enough to directly question him about it, (Even if just briefly) then she owes that dude an apology, for presuming to be allowed to step into his mind and stand in icy-eyed defiance of something she found there, that ultimately she has no context about why it's there & thereby no right to judge

Honestly, they know Troi well enough now, that if she'd just eyed him from the corner of her eye, while she left, with maybe a tilted head & a puzzled look on her face, & then just kept on keeping on, he still might have figured out she'd caught a glimpse, but there'd have been no direct condemnation on her part, just a hint that his emotional projections are not always going to go unnoticed. However, what she did was a flat out "I see you & I don't like it" & if she's just going to walk away, after he tucks his head, then she is pretty uncouth

Heck, even Riker looks like he's thinking "Bloody Cardies" No. I think we're meant to assume O'Brien has DARK feelings going on, along the lines of "Is today the day Setlik Massacre O'Brien is called up again?" but even still. There's context there for that feeling, "I hate what I became because of you" That's a pretty strong hate. She doesn't know the why, just that it's something he had bubble up. She doesn't even know where he is in how he deals with it

Literally everything else she knows about that good man, whose conduct has never been anything but upstanding otherwise, vs one errant feeling bubbling to the surface like a bad fart & then vanishing

Speaking is an act, even if it's to yourself. You are acting out. Having a wave of emotion roll over you for a moment is outside your control. How you HANDLE that wave is what you should be judged on

 

/\Absolutely correct.And it can be argued that O'Brien showed more restraint in his physical reaction to the Cardassian than Troi did to O'Brien.