Marcus indirectly referenced?

[Avro Arrow]

^ I'm guessing he's referring to this:

http://www.propstore.com/product/star-trek-ii-the-wrath-of-khan/the-new-star-trek-script/

 

[Lance]

It's just one of those things which I like to call 'ascended fanon', ie it's a fan theory which has taken on a life of its own and been effectively accepted as a viable and official part of the universe despite there being no direct evidence for it in any screen incarnation, while there being nothing to contradict it either.

Even if it had been thrown around in fan circles before-hand, I think it was the Okuda's Star Trek Chronology that fed the flames on the blond lab technician being Carol Marcus (as it so often did with this kind of fanon..... note that so many entries in that book are labelled as being "Conjecture", but because of the weight of the Okuda's involvement in Trek at the time, many of us accepted these 'fan theories' in the absence of anything more official being established on-screen).

There are a lot of things regarding TOS that are in fact 'fanon' in this regard. Some of them have subsequently become facts established on-screen, while still others never have, but are, for lack of anything else, "accepted" by the fandom as a kind of 'second tier' continuity anyway.

You are so right! It's just something that happens and some choose to believe it and go with it as it is never addressed or referenced again. It would be a conjecture. It seems that whatever is the most accepted solution tends to be what is followed. The only way for it to be canon is if it is addressed onscreen

To address the 'Okuda thing' I mentioned for a moment..... there are some things, for example, that the Okudas' both came up with as being "conjectural" backstory for the TNG characters, which they then used as the basis for the computer biographies we see on-screen in 'Conundrum'. So on that level, the fanon becomes the canon, because those of us with good eye-sight and freeze-frame would, in theory, see those particulars being stated as 'fact' in an on-screen context.

Of course, it works the other way too. Sometimes we accept the fanon as valid (and authors may even write books based on it), but it then gets contradicted by on-screen material, in which case the fanon obviously no longer has any weight at all -- this happened to the Okuda's with a whole boat-load of "conjecture" over Zephram Cochrane and the first warp flight, most of which was published in the first edition of the Chronology and Encyclopedia, but got ignored when they made 'First Contact' so it was struck from the subsequent versions of those books. And then you've got novelisations, and delete scenes from filmed material..... they've got some degree of validity, novelisations are usually based on earlier drafts of a script and contain material that might but for Grace Of God have appeared in actual canon, and yet ultimately it is still secondary material, because for whatever reason it got *cut* from the final product.

I think it's healthy to be open to fanon, like the blond lab technician maybe being Carol Marcus. But I also think it's the sort of thing that shouldn't be assumed to be true.

It gets harder still when one version of on-screen evidence contradicts another. For example, are we to accept the version of Cadet Picard with hair that we actually saw in flashback in "Tapestry", one which on the face of it was at least consistent with everything we assumed about Picard to that date? Or do we erroneously accept the bald Picard photo seen later in the movie "Nemesis"? That one is a dilemma for the ages. Is the most recent material in some way 'more relevant' than the older material, even though both have got some claim towards being true? Or do we accept the older material over the newer, simply because the older material got there 'first' so it has seniority? Even I don't have an easy answer to that one.....

 

[F. King Daniel]

In long-running franchises, the new always usurps the old. The "bigger picture" of Trek is constantly evolving. Spock is a Vulcan not a Vulcanian, the Enterprise crew work for Starfleet not the UESPA, it's James T. Kirk not R, etc.

(and to annoy a few here, Kirk's Enterprise was the second after Archer's, cloaking devices have been in use for over a century at the time of TOS, Klingons have smooth foreheads due to a genetic engineering experiment gone wrong, Scotty worked on a transwarp beaming formula in his younger days and Carol Marcus' distain for Starfleet probably has a thing or two to do with her father)

 

[Armored Saint]

Well, in the real world, it was likely a coincidence but in the world of Star Trek, it's as good a connection as any. Just like when Kirk says that he never had a brother, maybe it was the result of being so grief stricken by the death of his brother that he (unconsciously) decided to forget about his very existence

No, that's mean two things:
1- There was no world wide web in the late 80's, so Bennett and Shatner couldn't go to memory-alpha.org to make scrupulous verifications.
2- In the 60's, people in parties didn't draw moustach on their passed-out friends and then took pictures. They used fake moustach and filmed them.

 

[Melakon]

2- In the 60's, people in parties didn't draw moustach on their passed-out friends and then took pictures. They used fake moustach and filmed them.

Having been a teenager during the late 60s, I might have to dispute that. And if we did film them with standard 8mm, single 8mm, or Super 8mm film, it was usually MOS (mit out sound).

One dorm stunt I remember was the famous 3-Man Lift Demonstration, usually performed by the biggest and stongest guy on the floor.

The way it works, is you tell a New Freshman on the floor that Armored Saint here (for example), can perform feats of incredible strength, and can lift 3 men at once using only one hand.

Naturally, New Freshman might express disbelief at this, but everyone else assembled (10 or 15 guys perhaps) confirm it, saying they've seen him do it. New Freshman finally wants proof, so preparations are made.

Since NF will be used for the demonstration, he needs to be wearing a belt, and if he doesn't have one, someone offers their own. Then NF lies down on the floor, and two other guys lie down on either side of him. They interlock arms.

Armored Saint does a few loosening up exercises, takes a few deep breaths, then reaches down and grabs hold of NF's belt (also grabbing the front of NF's pants). Then he strains mightily, and belt and pants leave perhaps a 3-inch gap open from NF's torso. At that moment, everyone else produces a can of shaving cream, squeeze bottles of mustard, ketchup, gravy, syrup, or anything else available and empties the contents down NF's pants.

Armored Saint: Damn, sorry. Can't do it.

 

[Armored Saint]

And how can you explain Shatner was sleeping on a floor with a false moustache on him and didn't remember that 22 years later?

 

[Melakon]

He wasn't on our floor.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

And how can you explain Shatner was sleeping on a floor with a false moustache on him and didn't remember that 22 years later?

James Garner once said that fans often asked him about specific episodes of The Rockford Files, and he couldn't remember any of it. "It's a blur."

Filming was just a day at work to these guys. I recall a few things from my job 22 years ago, but I've forgotten the vast majority of it. Shatner could easily forget one little scene in "Operation: Annihilate!" that we all have memorized.

 

[Armored Saint]

I wasn't serious when I was asking why Shatner didn't remember what he did 22 years earlier. But, yeah, you explain very well my point.

Damn, now I want to rewatch Galaxy Quest.

 

[Lance]

In long-running franchises, the new always usurps the old. The "bigger picture" of Trek is constantly evolving. Spock is a Vulcan not a Vulcanian, the Enterprise crew work for Starfleet not the UESPA, it's James T. Kirk not R, etc.

(and to annoy a few here, Kirk's Enterprise was the second after Archer's, cloaking devices have been in use for over a century at the time of TOS, Klingons have smooth foreheads due to a genetic engineering experiment gone wrong, Scotty worked on a transwarp beaming formula in his younger days and Carol Marcus' distain for Starfleet probably has a thing or two to do with her father)

Hmm, I can see that, although I do understand how some might prefer the obverse viewpoint (that whatever came 'first' has got tenure over what contradicted it later). I guess this is why we have things like the Okudas' "conjectures"/retcons. There is a huge temptation to arbitarily come up with solutions that please all parties equally.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^ I'm guessing he's referring to this:

<some link>

That's right.