Marcus indirectly referenced?

[NeroShrimp]

There's a scene when Gary Michelle was telling Kirk about this blonde girl that was in Kirk's graduating class and that she almost married her. Could this have been Carol Marcus? Granted, I understand that she was never directly mentioned or anything, but could this have been what then became Marcus? It would be cool if there was some fan fiction regarding this.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

not intended, not even when they later wrote Carol and cast her I think.

It's just one of those things that happens to fit really well enough to work in retrospect.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The amount that has been written about whether the blond lab technician was Carol Marcus would crash V'ger's imaging systems.

 

[NeroShrimp]

I know Carol wasn't intended here nor even mentioned or thought of before TWOK, but it would be cool if it was confirmed that they came up with the character based on the conversation. Who knows. But no, you guys are right. It was just a small line and total coincidence.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It definitely wasn't intended, because Carol Marcus was originally conceived to be Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years". But lacking contrary evidence, I think matching Carol to the lab technician fits quite nicely.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think the better question is whether anything contradicts it rather than whether it was intentional.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I know Carol wasn't intended here nor even mentioned or thought of before TWOK, but it would be cool if it was confirmed that they came up with the character based on the conversation. Who knows. But no, you guys are right. It was just a small line and total coincidence.

No, actually that's not exactly what I'm saying at all. I don't think anybody other than all the people who contributed to the script of TWOK, or who are otherwise in the know, know whether Carol was intended to be that little blond lab technician. It's also conceivable that different contributors had different ideas on that matter. Us out here don't constitute people in the know on that issue (AFAIK ).

Now, it's worth pointing out that Samuel A. Peeples wrote a screenplay ("The New Star Trek") that was adapted by Harve Bennett et al into TWOK. Peeples went uncredited for that. That's the same Peeples who wrote "Where No Man...". Make of that what you will.

Here's what Memory Alpha has to say right now:

It has been suggested (such as in the Star Trek Chronology, 1st ed., p. 151 & 2nd ed., p. 268) that a "little blonde lab technician" mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" may, in fact, have been Carol Marcus. As depicted in the episode, Kirk almost married this female, after an initial encounter between them was arranged by Gary Mitchell (unbeknown to Kirk) while both males were studying at Starfleet Academy together. Of course, this unnamed character also could have been Janet Wallace, Ruth or some other woman never shown on-screen. Although Michael and Denise Okuda (the writers of the Star Trek Chronology) recognize that the reference might actually be to Carol, they also consider that, given the amount of romantic relationships that Kirk had in his lifetime, it is not surprising that Carol was never heard of (at least not directly) before appearing in Star Trek II. (text commentary, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan The Director's Edition)

Right in line with what I said.

 

[NeroShrimp]

I know Carol wasn't intended here nor even mentioned or thought of before TWOK, but it would be cool if it was confirmed that they came up with the character based on the conversation. Who knows. But no, you guys are right. It was just a small line and total coincidence.

No, actually that's not exactly what I'm saying at all. I don't think anybody other than all the people who contributed to the script of TWOK, or who are otherwise in the know, know whether Carol was intended to be that little blond lab technician. It's also conceivable that different contributors had different ideas on that matter. Us out here don't constitute people in the know on that issue (AFAIK ).

Now, it's worth pointing out that Samuel A. Peeples wrote a screenplay ("The New Star Trek") that was adapted by Harve Bennett et al into TWOK. Peeples went uncredited for that. That's the same Peeples who wrote "Where No Man...". Make of that what you will.

Here's what Memory Alpha has to say right now:

It has been suggested (such as in the Star Trek Chronology, 1st ed., p. 151 & 2nd ed., p. 268) that a "little blonde lab technician" mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" may, in fact, have been Carol Marcus. As depicted in the episode, Kirk almost married this female, after an initial encounter between them was arranged by Gary Mitchell (unbeknown to Kirk) while both males were studying at Starfleet Academy together. Of course, this unnamed character also could have been Janet Wallace, Ruth or some other woman never shown on-screen. Although Michael and Denise Okuda (the writers of the Star Trek Chronology) recognize that the reference might actually be to Carol, they also consider that, given the amount of romantic relationships that Kirk had in his lifetime, it is not surprising that Carol was never heard of (at least not directly) before appearing in Star Trek II. (text commentary, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan The Director's Edition)

Right in line with what I said.

Ok. Point taken.

 

[Melakon]

It's always possible the next film might decide to definitively answer the question with a throwaway line of dialogue. Or not.

 

[Lance]

It's just one of those things which I like to call 'ascended fanon', ie it's a fan theory which has taken on a life of its own and been effectively accepted as a viable and official part of the universe despite there being no direct evidence for it in any screen incarnation, while there being nothing to contradict it either.

Even if it had been thrown around in fan circles before-hand, I think it was the Okuda's Star Trek Chronology that fed the flames on the blond lab technician being Carol Marcus (as it so often did with this kind of fanon..... note that so many entries in that book are labelled as being "Conjecture", but because of the weight of the Okuda's involvement in Trek at the time, many of us accepted these 'fan theories' in the absence of anything more official being established on-screen).

There are a lot of things regarding TOS that are in fact 'fanon' in this regard. Some of them have subsequently become facts established on-screen, while still others never have, but are, for lack of anything else, "accepted" by the fandom as a kind of 'second tier' continuity anyway.

 

[EnriqueH]

Nero Shrimp, I love that avatar of Licence to Kill with Timothy Dalton. I have the Cinefantastique issue that had that cover. LOVE IT!

 

[NeroShrimp]

It's just one of those things which I like to call 'ascended fanon', ie it's a fan theory which has taken on a life of its own and been effectively accepted as a viable and official part of the universe despite there being no direct evidence for it in any screen incarnation, while there being nothing to contradict it either.

Even if it had been thrown around in fan circles before-hand, I think it was the Okuda's Star Trek Chronology that fed the flames on the blond lab technician being Carol Marcus (as it so often did with this kind of fanon..... note that so many entries in that book are labelled as being "Conjecture", but because of the weight of the Okuda's involvement in Trek at the time, many of us accepted these 'fan theories' in the absence of anything more official being established on-screen).

There are a lot of things regarding TOS that are in fact 'fanon' in this regard. Some of them have subsequently become facts established on-screen, while still others never have, but are, for lack of anything else, "accepted" by the fandom as a kind of 'second tier' continuity anyway.

You are so right! It's just something that happens and some choose to believe it and go with it as it is never addressed or referenced again. It would be a conjecture. It seems that whatever is the most accepted solution tends to be what is followed. The only way for it to be canon is if it is addressed onscreen

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's a scene when Gary Michelle was telling Kirk about this blonde girl that was in Kirk's graduating class and that she almost married her. Could this have been Carol Marcus? Granted, I understand that she was never directly mentioned or anything, but could this have been what then became Marcus? It would be cool if there was some fan fiction regarding this.

The names escape me, but there are several licensed comics and novels where it's assumed the "blonde lab technician" is Carol, and a few where it's someone else.

I imagine there are dozens of old fanfics from the 70's where every blonde fangirl did an author-insert (and then probably a Kirk insert)

 

[bbailey861]

I imagine there are dozens of old fanfics from the 70's where every blonde fangirl did an author-insert (and then probably a Kirk insert)

Oh, Good Lord...and this thread was doing so well, too.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

There's a scene when Gary Michelle was telling Kirk about this blonde girl that was in Kirk's graduating class and that she almost married her. Could this have been Carol Marcus? Granted, I understand that she was never directly mentioned or anything, but could this have been what then became Marcus? It would be cool if there was some fan fiction regarding this.

Well, in the real world, it was likely a coincidence but in the world of Star Trek, it's as good a connection as any. Just like when Kirk says that he never had a brother, maybe it was the result of being so grief stricken by the death of his brother that he (unconsciously) decided to forget about his very existence, just like the doctor in Voyager decided to forget about the name Schweitzer because of the painful memories it evoked. Although, on the face of it, that seems very improbable.

 

[Timo]

Kirk says he doesn't have a brother? Where's that from, ST:ID?

In ST5, he says he did lose a brother once, and then says it was Spock - but that's banter (or some more solemn counterpart, whatever you call it) that need in no way indicate Kirk has forgotten about Sam.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Indysolo]

I like to go along with the Samuel A. Peeples connection.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I like to go along with the Samuel A. Peeples connection.

Yay. I was hoping someone was going to pick up on that. I sure would like to read "The New Star Trek", but unfortunately I don't have an extra grand lying around at the moment.

 

[NeroShrimp]

Kirk says he doesn't have a brother? Where's that from, ST:ID?

In ST5, he says he did lose a brother once, and then says it was Spock - but that's banter (or some more solemn counterpart, whatever you call it) that need in no way indicate Kirk has forgotten about Sam.

Timo Saloniemi

Kirk never said he didn't have a brother. If he did say that in the Abramsverse, that's a different reality.
At first I thought he was referring to Sam, but when he then said, "I was lucky I got him back." I knew he was referring to Spock.

 

[BillJ]

I like to go along with the Samuel A. Peeples connection.

Yay. I was hoping someone was going to pick up on that. I sure would like to read "The New Star Trek", but unfortunately I don't have an extra grand lying around at the moment.

?