Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[Frodo Lives]

I think that's a valid theory, and given what we know of the comic-book version of Hydra certainly seems likely they'd eventually pull off their masks and laugh maniacally/triumphantly at their victory, letting the world know who was truly in charge.

But I'd postulate that even if Project Insight was successfully launched, Hydra would have continued to operate covertly as SHIELD, taking out whomever they liked, with the full backing of the citizenry and government. Why abandon the guise if it wasn't necessary? After all, as Zola said, it's much easier to have people hand over their freedom rather than try to take it by force. As long as they could portray whomever challenged them as traitors/terrorists they could pretty much get away with anything.

But it was Fury's nosiness and Cap's decision to drag the fight out into the open that forced their hand, meaning they had to take out as many loyal SHIELD agents/installations as possible before the jig was completely up. Wasn't Garrett just a little surprised that they'd finally decided to step out? I could be misremembering that though.

It just seems a little crazy to me that Hydra after hiding so successfully for so long would willingly give up that anonymity if they didn't have to. But in the end we are dealing with a Nazi-descended organisation - crazy's pretty much their mission-statement.

Of course there's definite room for either theory, which is part of what makes the film so great in my opinion, the ability to debate plot-points and character motivations.

 

[Mr Light]

If things had gone to plan, the Insight Carriers would have instantly assassinated every person that would have risen against them. And obviously the Hydra agents would have Order 66'd any heroic SHIELD agents. Instant coup.

It's the Tarkin Doctrine. If you have a Death Star that will be blow up any planet that rebels against you, everyone will be too terrified to resist you.

As for jumping into a helicopter, don't they tilt the copter on its side to get the rotors out of the way?

 

[Star Wolf]

You have to accept the premise that Hydra's psychological assessment was able to do what they claimed, separate out everybody who had in in him to join the rebellion in any capability from sympathizer to suicide bomber.In one made moment everybody left would be like citizens of North Korea and thanking SHIELD for their new found safety with neither terrorist nor the crazy shooting up schools or police officers eating pizza.

 

[Kemaiku]

As for jumping into a helicopter, don't they tilt the copter on its side to get the rotors out of the way?

Yes, it tilted 90 degrees until the rotors were literally sideways. It took Fury a few seconds to right the chopper again and get them away from the building, during which they were mostly helping Falcon into it.

 

[Gaith]

Marvel needs to grow up!

Or you could accept that these are comicbook movies and it's a rare superhero story that stands up to real world logic or realism.

Rule of Cool is the mantra.

There is a point where cool fades into stupid... and then the Hasbro logo appears.

Yeah, HYDRA's plan is pretty stupid in a total comic-booky way, but going by the worldwide grosses, Marvel Studios doesn't "need" to change any part of their MO. OTOH, I agree that Cap2 has been a bit over-praised. Yes, it was nice to see them making gestures toward contemporary issues, which is more than most comic book movies go, but gestures is ultimately all they were.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I agree with you almost fully. I will say that I ahd a great time watching the first Transformer film and the second G.I. Joe film.. both are absurd, but they embrace their absurd in an old-fashion kind of way.

In the second act of Winter Soldier, Nick Fury tells Cap that Shied has been compromised. I've found that in movies, the more awesome a spy agency is, and the more tools and bets people it has, the more likely it will be that this organization will be compromised. Upon anyone's initiation in SHIELD, Fury should tell them that the signal that the organization is compromised is to rub behind your own ear.. some gesture, rather than trying to text it

 

[DEWLine]

Yeah. They figured that with the first 700,000+ fatalities including everyone from President Ellis and Tony Stark on down to "random" people in the streets, parks, and so on pre-identified as potential "anti-HYDRA" recruits via PRISM-style methods, the mask was going to come off anyway. Also, they had seventy-plus years to make sure they had people in every SHIELD base, vessel(air, sea or space) placed well enough to ensure the rest of the planet would have to sit still for the HYDRA "pacification" program.

(No doubt, George Lucas was also on HYDRA's Insight Target List just for writing Revenge of the Sith. Because he was able to foresee the possibility of an "Order 66" scenario at all.)

 

[Enterprise1701]

(No doubt, George Lucas was also on HYDRA's Insight Target List just for writing Revenge of the Sith. Because he was able to foresee the possibility of an "Order 66" scenario at all.)

 

[Turtletrekker]

Deleted scenes. Another mention of Widow's "Budapest" adventure.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I agree with you almost fully. I will say that I ahd a great time watching the first Transformer film and the second G.I. Joe film.. both are absurd, but they embrace their absurd in an old-fashion kind of way.

In the second act of Winter Soldier, Nick Fury tells Cap that Shied has been compromised. I've found that in movies, the more awesome a spy agency is, and the more tools and bets people it has, the more likely it will be that this organization will be compromised. Upon anyone's initiation in SHIELD, Fury should tell them that the signal that the organization is compromised is to rub behind your own ear.. some gesture, rather than trying to text it

To what end exactly? He got his point across in this situation just fine. Having a 'secret signal' that the organization is compromised is completely useless, because if the organization is compromised then the enemy by definition knows what the signal is. Also, Fury has been trying very hard from the very beginning to keep Cap from seeing too deep into shield. If Fury had honestly told him that he believed Shield might one day be vulnerable to a silent takeover by anyone, do you really think Captain America would've ever agreed to run missions for shield at all?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Fair enough. But maybe there can be some way for him to let cap know without texting it.

How did Cap get his shield back after the big overpass scene?

 

[Dream]

How Captain America: The Winter Soldier Should Have Ended

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhbWIFDqQfk[/yt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhbWIFDqQfk

 

[Aldo]

Fair enough. But maybe there can be some way for him to let cap know without texting it.

How did Cap get his shield back after the big overpass scene?

He picked it up.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Fair enough. But maybe there can be some way for him to let cap know without texting it.

How did Cap get his shield back after the big overpass scene?

He picked it up.

He was captured.. he couldn't pick it up!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Fair enough. But maybe there can be some way for him to let cap know without texting it.

How did Cap get his shield back after the big overpass scene?

He picked it up.

He was captured.. he couldn't pick it up!

I'll have to wait for the dvd before I can rewatch to see if there's anything to see, but my guess would be the Shield in exile people picked it up and took it back to that secret base where Maria Hill brought them after rescuing them.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

My memory is that three of them were captured and placed into a van.. and he had no shield from that point even through the scene where they are in the Apple story planning their "New Jersey vacation." But he has the shield again when they are in New Jersey.

Some people say I'm nitpicking.. but the shield is no minor nitpick.. and when doing a tense picture in the spirit of a 70's action/political thriller, it's more important that the details are correct.

 

[DWF]

My memory is that three of them were captured and placed into a van.. and he had no shield from that point even through the scene where they are in the Apple story planning their "New Jersey vacation." But he has the shield again when they are in New Jersey.

Some people say I'm nitpicking.. but the shield is no minor nitpick.. and when doing a tense picture in the spirit of a 70's action/political thriller, it's more important that the details are correct.

You're taking things out of order, they weren't captured and put into the van til after they went to New Jeresy, Now hee didn't have the shield in the Aplle story but he might've just left it somewhere safe. He did howwever have it after facing Bucky for the first time and it was porbably Hill or someother SHIELD agent who picked it and put in the van.

 

[Tosk]

That's right...as long as the shield was in the same vehicle as Steve, Natasha, and Sam then there's no problem.

 

[Bad Bishop]

Is Amazon pushing their U.S. customers to buy the download of Captain America: The Winter Soldier? There must be some reason they're still not listing the Blu-ray or DVD, one month before the release date.

 

[DimesDan]

Well it's out here a week Monday.