In the Federation everyone has an elevated cultural taste?

[Vandervecken]

well, there's this from TVH:

SPOCK: Your use of language has altered since our arrival. It is currently laced with, ...shall I say, ...more colorful metaphors. 'Double dumb ass on you' ...and so forth.
KIRK: You mean profanity. That's simply the way they talk here. Nobody pays any attention to you if you don't swear every other word. You'll find it in all the literature of the period.
SPOCK: For example?
KIRK: Oh, the collective works of Jacqueline Susann. The novels of Harold Robbins.
SPOCK: Ah! ...'The giants'.


Although in quotes here, Spock in no wise speaks in a way that calls his use of the word "giants" into question. He means that Jacqueline Susann and Harold Robbins (20th century writers of dreck) are literary giants in the 23rd century. So unfortunately, while funny, this usage isn't 23rd-century enjoyment of 21st- century entertainment for the hoi polloi (although that's what it is to us), but the 23rd century elevating 21st century-shite to 23rd-century classic status.

I always found Spock's 'giants' comment to be rather sardonic. Even if that's not the case, though, I think it's a very poor interpretation to say he means that those authors are literary giants in the 23rd century. At the absolute most, I would interpret it as him believing that those authors were the most popular authors of the 20th century.

Why (a poor interpretation)? Frankly I don't see any other. It sounds just that way to me...every time I've hard it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WTvEbUkeLM



The humor is that two popular writers of trashy stuff have become giants of literature by the 23rd century. From Spock's delivery, I don't see any other alternative. Also, remember that Spock, just having come back from the dead, was especially literal minded in TVH, much more so than usual. He was not cracking any jokes. Also, when Kirk says "The collected works of Jacqueline Susann" he seems to be speaking of her work as if it's high literature--and trash isn't usually treated to collected editions. "Collected works" is a phrase almost always associated with classic literature of high quality.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

well, there's this from TVH:

SPOCK: Your use of language has altered since our arrival. It is currently laced with, ...shall I say, ...more colorful metaphors. 'Double dumb ass on you' ...and so forth.
KIRK: You mean profanity. That's simply the way they talk here. Nobody pays any attention to you if you don't swear every other word. You'll find it in all the literature of the period.
SPOCK: For example?
KIRK: Oh, the collective works of Jacqueline Susann. The novels of Harold Robbins.
SPOCK: Ah! ...'The giants'.


Although in quotes here, Spock in no wise speaks in a way that calls his use of the word "giants" into question. He means that Jacqueline Susann and Harold Robbins (20th century writers of dreck) are literary giants in the 23rd century. So unfortunately, while funny, this usage isn't 23rd-century enjoyment of 21st- century entertainment for the hoi polloi (although that's what it is to us), but the 23rd century elevating 21st century-shite to 23rd-century classic status.

I always found Spock's 'giants' comment to be rather sardonic. Even if that's not the case, though, I think it's a very poor interpretation to say he means that those authors are literary giants in the 23rd century. At the absolute most, I would interpret it as him believing that those authors were the most popular authors of the 20th century.

Why (a poor interpretation)? Frankly I don't see any other. It sounds just that way to me...every time I've hard it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WTvEbUkeLM



The humor is that two popular writers of trashy stuff have become giants of literature by the 23rd century. From Spock's delivery, I don't see any other alternative. Also, remember that Spock, just having come back from the dead, was especially literal minded in TVH, much more so than usual. He was not cracking any jokes. Also, when Kirk says "The collected works of Jacqueline Susann" he seems to be speaking of her work as if it's high literature--and trash isn't usually treated to collected editions. "Collected works" is a phrase almost always associated with classic literature of high quality.

Calling them 'THE giants' seems to suggest a particular phrase that's commonly used to describe them, not a general attempt to describe them as legitimate giants of industry. The way I hear it, especially Kirk's reaction, is that the phrase is probably intended to be used sarcastically, but Spock being so literal at the moment just doesn't get it. I see no reason at all to believe that they're considered great literature in the 23rd century. I also see no reason to assume that calling them the 'collected works' automatically implies high quality. I've seen 'collected works' applied to some fairly random stuff, from children's books to rock music.

 

[varek]

Sometimes you wonder who is more successful: a longterm masterpiece, or a hugely profitable best-seller? There are probably innumerable works of genius that have never received much attention and were soon completely forgotten. So, who did they benefit with their wisdom, other than making the authors feel good or fulfilled?

I just read that composer Scott Joplin was unable to get his masterpiece opera Treemonisha (written in 1910) performed in his lifetime; he died in 1917. But, more than 50 years after he died, it was performed in 1972 and won a big prize.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 

[BillJ]

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Not really. Life is random and timing is everything.

 

[CorporalClegg]

toilet repairman are talking about King Lear while doing their job?

Out vile smelly!

 

[AgentCoop]

I never interpreted Spock's "giants" comment as anything but sarcasm. To me that's why it's funny. That scene also comes across (to me, anyway) as being every bit as snooty and "look down your nose at the 20th Century" as TNG is always accused of being. Especially Kirk's comments about profanity.

 

[JariM]

How often has any futuristic sci-fi featured people that are fans of any recognizable 20th century pop-culture (music, movies, videogames)? it doesn't happen often.

Not ST but in Babylon 5 Mr. Garibaldi was a fan of Duffy Duck. That's the only example I can remember right now.

 

[publiusr]

That was priceless.

 

[junkdata]

The "lower ranks" may have more common cultural tastes. We are privvy to the cream, and they arent that elitist in all aspects, to be fair.

 

[I am not Spock]

Interesting topic!

They did have movie night on the ship in Enterprise. Although that was set pre-Federation. We heard Trip and Reed discussing Superman comics.

Tom Paris was a fan of 20th century pop culture. We saw him watching The Untouchables (the TV show) on his replica television set in his quarters, and listening to 50s rock n roll.

They were playing what appeared to be dance music in an Earth nightclub in 'Into Darkness'. And Pine's Kirk seems to be a fan of the Beastie Boys, blaring it in both his uncle's stolen car, and on his record turntable in STID!

It might seem everyone are snobs for high culture exclusively in Trek, but it's not always Dickens, or Bach, or Berlioz

 

[Maurice]

It's almost always western culture, isn't it?

 

[wulfio]

It's almost always western culture, isn't it?

With the exception of Keiko, that`s an accurate statement I think.

edit: there was also Bashir`s parents, although I don`t know how much of their culture they represented.

 

[Wadjda]

Was Keiko's Eastern Asian culture ever brought up? Ever talked about Sun Tzu? Guo Jing and Huang Rong? Legendary Samurai warriors?

 

[T'Girl]

At her wedding, Keiko wore a traditional Shinto wedding dress.

 

[wulfio]

At her wedding, Keiko wore a traditional Shinto wedding dress.

That and I remember an episode where she was feeding O'brien traditional Japanese meals, and all he wanted was greasy spoon.

 

[Maurice]

We were talking about elevated cultural taste, not occasional concessions to someone's background.

But the show was very western centric even with regards to the characters' likes. Why not have Troi like Gulab Jamun as well as chocolate? How come no one eats Kaddo or listens to east African music? I love kaddo and I'm hardly an Afghan.

 

[wulfio]

We were talking about elevated cultural taste, not occasional concessions to someone's background.

But the show was very western centric even with regards to the characters' likes. Why not have Troi like Gulab Jamun as well as chocolate? How come no one eats Kaddo or listens to east African music? I love kaddo and I'm hardly an Afghan.

Someone asked if there was any representation of other cultures at all and I responded...

 

[T'Girl]

We were talking about elevated cultural taste ...

Actually we're bring forward multiple examples of the Trek characters NOT having elevated cultural tastes.

Why not have Troi like Gulab Jamun ...

Because extremely few people would know what that is.

How come no one eats Kaddo

Several people on DS9 drank Klingon coffee, which isn't "western."