Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

[Sans]

back to the orginial topic:

On why there is not Constitution-class ships any more, but still Excelsior-class ships; from Ex Astris Scientia:

A possible reason why the Enterprise-A and possibly other ships of the class were scheduled to be retired at the end of "Star Trek VI" can be found in the movie itself. At the initial briefing one of the admirals speaks of "mothballing the Starfleet". He is certainly exaggerating, but more precisely he could refer to a bilateral arms reduction treaty. Such an agreement may easily include several ships of the Constitution class as a typical frontline type of vessels. In such a scenario Starfleet would prefer their (provisional) retirement over that of the newer Excelsior class.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ship_classes.htm

And going off on that, what if some of those ships where reconfigured or served as parts for the Soyuz and Miranda-classes. That would explain why we still see those classes in service.

 

[Sans]

The crew of Enterprise-D seemed surprised to find Scott on this transport. Maybe because as far as they know he lived beyond that point.

I love this idea, but I'll have to watch it again. I thought they said in show that he disappeared: no mention that he lived after the crash.

 

[Ithekro]

Or maybe he "disappeared" after the launch of Enterprise-B, but not related to the Dyson Sphere.

I've not watched the whole episode in a while either.


The Constitution-class, as we generally know it, is a very old class by the time of Star Trek VI. If the original Enterprise was one of the earliest ships of that class, that means the class has been around for about 50 years by that time. If one assumes the lower registry numbered ships are also the same class but even older, than the Constitution-class could be even older than that by upwards of decades. We can assume the design is not that old, but that it mainly to do with Enterprise having on board in the late 2260s both the designer of the Enterprise (Lawrence Marvick) and Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the computers used on Enterprise.

But even then, the Constitution-class is at least 50 years old by the time of Khitomer. How many Constitutions were build in those 50 years? We know there were 13 according to Kirk in 2267. Were they all built early on then then continued on until they were destroyed or wore out? We know they were refit more than once, but how long can they stay active even with major refits? Was the Enterprise-A the last one built? Was it an older ship that was renamed to Enterprise and given a new number? Did they even build new Constitutions after the first run or so? Did they build new ones based on the various refits, or only refit the older ones to keep them modernized as Starfleet build other new ships (like the Mirandas, the Constellations, and Excelsior)?

Can the Constitution hulls hold out for more than 50 years? 100 years? We don't know. Or were they so heavily used and abused that they wore out quicker than the larger and perhaps more robust Excelsiors, or the potentially cheaper and maybe not as heavily used Mirandas. The Constellations were called underpowered by Picard and seem to be used hard, but they soldiered on for about 70 or 80 years before we basically stopped seeing them in Star Trek. They look a little more robust than the sometimes fragile looking Constitutions.

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?

 

[yenny]

back to the orginial topic:

On why there is not Constitution-class ships any more, but still Excelsior-class ships; from Ex Astris Scientia:

A possible reason why the Enterprise-A and possibly other ships of the class were scheduled to be retired at the end of "Star Trek VI" can be found in the movie itself. At the initial briefing one of the admirals speaks of "mothballing the Starfleet". He is certainly exaggerating, but more precisely he could refer to a bilateral arms reduction treaty. Such an agreement may easily include several ships of the Constitution class as a typical frontline type of vessels. In such a scenario Starfleet would prefer their (provisional) retirement over that of the newer Excelsior class.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ship_classes.htm

And going off on that, what if some of those ships where reconfigured or served as parts for the Soyuz and Miranda-classes. That would explain why we still see those classes in service.

We can look the USS. Bozeman NCC-1941, a Soyuz class starship which went through a time loop in 2278 and it own class decommission in 2287.

Or maybe he "disappeared" after the launch of Enterprise-B, but not related to the Dyson Sphere.

I've not watched the whole episode in a while either.


The Constitution-class, as we generally know it, is a very old class by the time of Star Trek VI. If the original Enterprise was one of the earliest ships of that class, that means the class has been around for about 50 years by that time. If one assumes the lower registry numbered ships are also the same class but even older, than the Constitution-class could be even older than that by upwards of decades. We can assume the design is not that old, but that it mainly to do with Enterprise having on board in the late 2260s both the designer of the Enterprise (Lawrence Marvick) and Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the computers used on Enterprise.

But even then, the Constitution-class is at least 50 years old by the time of Khitomer. How many Constitutions were build in those 50 years? We know there were 13 according to Kirk in 2267. Were they all built early on then then continued on until they were destroyed or wore out? We know they were refit more than once, but how long can they stay active even with major refits? Was the Enterprise-A the last one built? Was it an older ship that was renamed to Enterprise and given a new number? Did they even build new Constitutions after the first run or so? Did they build new ones based on the various refits, or only refit the older ones to keep them modernized as Starfleet build other new ships (like the Mirandas, the Constellations, and Excelsior)?

Can the Constitution hulls hold out for more than 50 years? 100 years? We don't know. Or were they so heavily used and abused that they wore out quicker than the larger and perhaps more robust Excelsiors, or the potentially cheaper and maybe not as heavily used Mirandas. The Constellations were called underpowered by Picard and seem to be used hard, but they soldiered on for about 70 or 80 years before we basically stopped seeing them in Star Trek. They look a little more robust than the sometimes fragile looking Constitutions.

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?

I'm assuming that the USS Eagle NCC-956 was in mothball and the USS. Endeavor NCC-1895 haven't been commission yet, even thought it was at starbase 11.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?

I think it's possible that there may have been some Constitution-class ships still in service by 2320s, but by then there might have been only a handful of them left and they were generally reserved for courier and colonization support missions.

It could be that the Constitution-class design had a fairly long life (about 80 years or so), but the lifespan of individual ships within the design tended to be half that or even less, IMO. The last brand-new Constitution-class ship may have been built in the 2280s.

 

[AirCommodore]

Thoughts on how long the Constitutions, assuming there were all that many left by 2293, could survive in active service?

Hard to say. It's possible that some still exist in service in 2391, or whatever the year is "now" in Trek Prime. Many ships could continue indefinitely, if that was decided upon. Most ships that are retired are not retired because they are "worn out". Sometimes it is simply decided to replace older classes with newer more advanced classes.

Sometimes, older ships are "transferred" to other Navies, the Coast Guard, or some other entity and then go on in their new service for many, many more years. Some WWII US Navy ships are still in service.

I would be surprised if Starleet still used them, although Miranda Class ships were still in use. But some might still have life, with other organizations, for training, research or other purposes.

 

[AirCommodore]

As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?

The point wasn't that there weren't ships prior to the Federation called Enterprise, but rather that NCC-1701 was the first Federation ship called Enterprise.

Until a future writer decides to say there was one, or two or more. They can if they want to. Majel only said what the script told her to say. If that changes later, it's not a big deal. It did seem strange that the name "Enterprise", so famous after the exploits of NX-01, would go unused for 80 or 90 years.

But since Scotty said "my old ship", maybe the computer eliminated any ships with no living former crew members. I prefer to say they simply hadn't thought of making shows set in the decades for Kirk prior to that TNG episode.

 

[Sans]

My thoughts, going with the idea that all of Constitution-class ships, both the refit and any non-refits if any left, where decommissioned due to the Khitomer Accords. This ships, being older, and my guess at this time, very numerous, was chosen due so none of the Excelsior class ships in the pipeline whould be cut back.

Instead of scrapping them, they were used to beef up the exploration side, by using them as parts for the Soyuz, Miranda, and Constellation class ships. When the Soyuz class was decommissioned, they might have been retrofitted to standard Miranda-class ships.

As for the number of ships of the Constitution Classes there where, how big was Starfleet at the times in question?

Also, as for as the converstions about ships named Enterprise, how do we not know that it was a test bed for tech that didn't exactly plan out the way Starfleet thought it would? Also, what proof do we have that the Enterprise-B served any span of time? What if due to the apparent death of Kirk, what if TPTB decided that it would be ill form to keep the Enterprise name going and desided to rename her to the Lakota like it was suggested before? If one would accept these two thoughts, then it would answer why we only see on other Excelsior-class refit and the span between C and D would not bee that unusall as it happen between B and C.

 

[C.E. Evans]

As for non federation ships named "Enterprise", I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ringship from TMP. Doesn't that prove the point that such ships existed?

The point wasn't that there weren't ships prior to the Federation called Enterprise, but rather that NCC-1701 was the first Federation ship called Enterprise.

Until a future writer decides to say there was one, or two or more. They can if they want to. Majel only said what the script told her to say. If that changes later, it's not a big deal.

In a very real sense, that's neither here nor there given how things presently stand officially.

It did seem strange that the name "Enterprise", so famous after the exploits of NX-01, would go unused for 80 or 90 years.

There may not have been an Enterprise in active service, but there was still an Enterprise during that time as NX-01 was never scrapped but instead moved to a museum (where still currently exists in the 24th-Century).

 

[Ithekro]

Or there was a ship (or two) that were just not Starfleet ships. Enterprise the colonial transport, passenger liner, or even something unusual like diplomatic carrier used to move people from one Federation world to the next in an expanding effort to unify the Federation, instead of as a Starfleet vessel that might still be seen as an Earth ship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

They would still be counted as Federation ships, just with Earth registries. The same would be true with ships of Vulcan or Andorian registries, IMO. It would probably work with vessels pre-Federation or non-Federation though...

 

[Ithekro]

Would they though? The primary assumption is that Federation ships are Starfleet. Other things are civilian or planetary government, at least during the 22nd and 23rd century, and thus not be included as a Federation vessel. Much like any civilian ship today would not be included on a list of US Navy ships or in many cases even American ships even if it is registered in the United States.

 

[C.E. Evans]

They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.

Source?

 

[C.E. Evans]

They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.

Source?

Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

They would still be Federation ships as long as the planets they're registered to are members of the Federation.

Source?

Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.

I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Source?

Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.

I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.

Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...

 

[AirCommodore]

Star Trek
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Or any Star Trek episode or movie that features Earth, Vulcan, and various other member worlds of the Federation.

I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.

Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...

I can fathom it, at least with an added bit. For civilian vessels they may or may not fly the flag of the US. They may choose to fly the flag of Panama, even if the ship was built in the US, and manned entirely by Americans. It's a "Panamanian" Ship even if it was not built there and not a single Panamanian sails on her.

We don't know what Federation registry rules are. It's possible a ship may not "fly the flag of the Federation" even though it was built there and the entire crew is made up of people from Federation planets.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I meant the source for something that says that any ship registered to a Federation member is automatically considered a Federation ship, because I don't recollect any such episode.

Are you serious?

I can't even fathom this statement...

I can fathom it, at least with an added bit. For civilian vessels they may or may not fly the flag of the US. They may choose to fly the flag of Panama, even if the ship was built in the US, and manned entirely by Americans. It's a "Panamanian" Ship even if it was not built there and not a single Panamanian sails on her.

We don't know what Federation registry rules are. It's possible a ship may not "fly the flag of the Federation" even though it was built there and the entire crew is made up of people from Federation planets. Today 07:02 PM

It's just a simple case of who is a member of the Federation and who isn't. You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.

Starfleet vessels tend to identify themselves clearly as Federation ships when dealing with non-Federation ships and worlds, but the term could still be applied to civilian vessels too.

A case could be made for independent vessels that don't have Federation registry and really aren't aligned with the Federation or any of its member worlds, but the point was about those that do.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You can have a ship be from Earth or Vulcan, but if both are members of the Federation, it's a no-brainer that both are Federation ships.

Not really. If things in Star Trek were no-brainers, there wouldn't be so much contradiction within canon.

We all have our "theories" for how things work in continuity. But just because something makes sense based on existing canon, that doesn't mean that when it's squarely addressed in a future movie or episode that it will necessarily comport with our theories. Much of the time, it doesn't.

If it's not addressed in canon, it's not addressed in canon.