Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

[Ithekro]

Ghosting in the holorecording. Never double expose a 3D picture or you'll get things in weird places on the holodeck.

Regardless, it is still the bridge from USS Enterprise.

(The recreation of the sets used by Phase II/New Voyages is far superior to what they did back in Relics, but then they had time to make the full set from full plans on the New Voyages set.)

 

[Ronald Held]

Of course the ship's computer tried to provide Scotty with a simulation that closely approximated the TOS Enterprise (it was meant to represent the TOS Enterprise).


But the differences are clearly there and visible

• the rail and step next to the command chair don't match
• the color of the floor carpet is wrong (Bob Justman said so when he visited this set)
• the helm/nav console lacks the black vertical edge
• the helm/nav console control buttons are different and the set of switch buttons is missing (where Chekov's left hand would usually be)
• there is less space between the alert indicator and the dedication plaque, and the lights above aren't colored (okay, I agree these truly are nitpicky)

Since we are dealing with onscreen canon, there must be an explanation for the discrepancies (hopefully not one which claims that the bridge presentation in TOS was inaccurate ).

Bob

How did all these discrepancies get through to filming?
No matter many errors there were Scott was too drunk to notice and what was there was to provide him emotional support

 

[Ithekro]

They only had a limited set to work with and they moved it around to give the impresion that there was more to it. Some parts were modified so they could be used as other bits and were compromises to get the shots done in time and on budget.

The colors and such were taken from almost 25 year old photographs and reprints of said photographs without color correction for the fading of the prints and lighting of those old 1960s sets.

The replics were made by someone else and borrowed for the episode. The builder may have not had accurate diagrams to work with in the 1980s. Or inaccurate fan blueprints made in the 1970s.

Regardless it is the USS Enterprise as both Scott and Picard accept it as so.

Mind you that Picard has probably only seen one in a museum and Scotty likely hasn't seen this bridge setup for about 25 years by his interal clock (100 years ago by the time of the episode).

 

[yenny]

This is a clip from Next Generation six season bluRay that is at stores now. It is behind the scene of Relics of building the Enterprise 1701 bridge set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4cgThG9usc

 

[Robert Comsol]

The colors and such were taken from almost 25 year old photographs and reprints of said photographs without color correction for the fading of the prints and lighting of those old 1960s sets.

VHS tapes and LaserDiscs with a rather correct coloring were available back then

The replics were made by someone else and borrowed for the episode. The builder may have not had accurate diagrams to work with in the 1980s. Or inaccurate fan blueprints made in the 1970s.

Actually all available publications had the correct bridge layout, from The Making of Star Trek, FJ's Technical Manual to Michael Mc Master's bridge blueprints. I just learned from some friends that some guys went through the hazzle of constructing a life-size X-Wing Fighter, based on the erroneous MPC model kit. Some guys apparently just don't care about accuracy.

Regardless it is the USS Enterprise as both Scott and Picard accept it as so.

Sure, it worked for general audiences but usually around here some of us are a wee bit more demanding.

Again, the ship's computer didn't even ask Scotty which "1701" bridge, and Picard just confirms it's the bridge of a Constitution Class starship (he has never seen the bridge of the real TOS Enterprise). Add to this Scotty is drunk, so from an in-universe research point of view this bridge does not look like an accurate reproduction of the actual TOS bridge but rather an approximation which is all the ship's computer had to offer (but it worked fine for Scotty who was probably impressed what a 24th Century holodeck could do)

Bob

 

[Ithekro]

As pointed out by the Phase II/New Voyages production staff, they had a hard time finding sources to get the actual colors for the TOS bridge, Especially the carpet, as the lighting of the day makes it look very different than its actual color. Thus if one used VHS tapes of the day, you'd not get the right color for the floor unless you knew exactly how they lit the set, which would require more research than one can spend time on for a weekly produced TV show if you are only going to build a partial set for one episode when the first plan was to do it all with blue screen.

Also it is easy to note that the image of the bridge when first seen, is identical to the USS Enterprise, as it is the USS Enterprise in a shot from an existing episode. Only after the actors get into the limited set does it shift around as they didn't have enough set to work with for the detail hounds. In looking at an overhead view of what they had to work with you can tell the short cut off section of railing was suppose to be the start of the bit that was to Kirk's left side, and that the camera angle the set was designed for was to focus on the Engineering station, rather than the Captain's chair. Looks like they improvised based on the director's whims and what pieces they got in terms of the helm and captain's chair.

Basically I can ignore the errors in the set due to the establishing shot of the Bridge as being the real thing.

 

[Dukhat]

Basically I can ignore the errors in the set due to the establishing shot of the Bridge as being the real thing.

Exactly.

In "All Good Things..." in the past scenes where Picard has just taken command of the ship: there are several differences between the bridge set for these scenes and the actual bridge set from season one. Are we to assume that based on these minor differences, that Picard actually was on the bridge of another Galaxy class ship with coincidentally the same name? Of course not.

 

[Mytran]

Nah, he was clearly in a parallel universe/timeline. There was discontinuity between the the time zones, remember? Q probably had to rope in some of those near-identical quantum universes mentioned in Parallels for his Evil Plan to work efficiently. One of those near-identical differences was that the Season 2 Bridge module got installed early, that's all

 

[Dukhat]

^While I acknowledge that you're being facetious here, I still want to point out that it was supposed to be the same ship

 

[Mytran]

I agree - it was the same ship (more or less).

With regard the recreation of the Enterprise bridge that Scotty asked for, there is one extra feature which definiently distances itself from the TOS Bridge - it has TWO exits!
The main one and one used by Picard (from this page)

Interestingly, the second exit seems to be more or less next to Spock's station. Maybe someone should start a thread about that...

 

[Ithekro]

The Animated Series USS Enterprise has two turbolifts as well.

Though Picard might be using an entrance on the ship, as he was coming in via the holodeck doors, which can be anyplace, really.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, its the whole point of the discussion. From the very start...

The very start was here, where I pointed out to you that discussions of "ships named Enterprise" rarely if ever specify that they are referring to Federation ships named Enterprise. Scotty didn't, and neither did the DTI agents. Even the E-D's dedication plaque doesn't specify that.

Sorry, but no.

No what? If they didn't say it, they didn't say it. It thus remains entirely possible that NON-Federation vessels exist with the name Enterprise that consistently slip under history's radar (NX-01 being the most obvious example).

Is there something about that you're not comprehending or are you disagreeing just to be disagreeable?

Do we really know whether the ship's computer has holodeck programs of Enterprises prior to the TOS Enterprise?

Yes we do, as seen in "These Are the Voyages" which supposedly takes place barely a year after "Relics."

We also know it has a simulation of a 19th century Enterprise (as seen in Generations), which was also excluded from the list.

Fact is that the computer doesn't even ask him which NCC-1701 bridge he'd like to see and delivers him the only program available - it's not even the Bridge of the Enterprise but just a Constitution Class Bridge, basically an approximation, but Scotty seemed grateful that he got that, at least.

The Enterprise computer being what it is, I almost think Scotty could have talked the thing into showing him the TMP version or even the "No Man" version if he was added more detail to his request. In this case he was limited to just the "featured" search results and (obviously) didn't get the full list of results for "bridge of the Enterprise."

The point being, that leaves quite a bit of room for "forgotten Enterprise" designs to slip through the cracks. We know FOR A FACT that NX-01 is on that list, as it is 1) definitely in the holodeck's database and 2) not listed for Scotty or anyone else for that matter. Something similar may have happened to whatever ships existed in the years between Enterprise B and C or -C and -D. The names were given (or at least reserved) for active starships that either never went into service or never served for the Federation itself.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The Animated Series USS Enterprise has two turbolifts as well.

And that's the only one Picard could have used, since the door he comes through has a red alert light next to it. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's the same door Scotty came through when he entered the bridge, but I haven't seen that episode in a while.

Frankly I'm leaning towards the "Generic Constitution" bridge since the holodeck has never in the past been depicted to have 100% fidelity in its recreations. Nothing as serious as dead pixels or washed out textures, but it doesn't always put things in the right place or the right order (and sometimes when it's REALLY glitchy, switches its characters' handedness).

This particular simulation wasn't really meant to meet up with the standards of someone who had actually BEEN on the TOS bridge (they're all dead by now) and even if it had, Scotty hasn't seen the TOS bridge module in 30 years.

 

[Mytran]

The Animated Series USS Enterprise has two turbolifts as well.

Except that the TAS secondary exit was located port side of the main viewer, and Picard (and Scotty) entered mid starboard.

As for alternate Bridges, the original Ent may have had at least 4 different designs, but the Ent-D had a Bridge in season 1 too. Would the computer have mentioned this option if Scotty had selected "D" or simply shown the most popular "standard" configuration?

 

[C.E. Evans]

The very start was here, where I pointed out to you that discussions of "ships named Enterprise" rarely if ever specify that they are referring to Federation ships named Enterprise. Scotty didn't, and neither did the DTI agents. Even the E-D's dedication plaque doesn't specify that.

Sorry, but no.

No what? If they didn't say it, they didn't say it.

But they did say it. I don't know why you keep ignoring onscreen material and insisting that they didn't.

It thus remains entirely possible that NON-Federation vessels exist with the name Enterprise that consistently slip under history's radar (NX-01 being the most obvious example).

As long as they aren't Federation starships named Enterprise then it works. But since the issue from the very start was about Federation starships named Enterprise, well...

Is there something about that you're not comprehending or are you disagreeing just to be disagreeable?

That's my question to you.

 

[Ithekro]

Another ship named Enterprise, outside the existing NCC-1701 structure would have to be either:

A: A non-Federation starship (or at least not one at the start)

B: Not a "starship".

C: Not in Starfleet service (thus could be a starship that serves the Federation, but is not in Starfleet and thus would not normally be counted) There are plenty of ships and boats in civilian hands named Enterprise. VSS Enterprise comes to mind in the present, as well as the test orbiter Enterprise that is presently in a museum.

Type in "Enterprise" in Wikipedia and you'll find a lot more ships than one would think. They aren't "USS Enterprise", but are named Enterprise. 15 for the Royal Navy alone. Seven for the US Navy. 13 others as ships or boats. Plus two balloons, three spacecraft, and a naval building. And 23 town like places.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The subject wasn't even relevant, really. Had Scotty (or anyone else for that matter) wanted to see an Enterprise that wasn't a Federation starship, it would have been a simple matter of asking the computer for it.

 

[Ithekro]

I found the scene if one wished to view it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Rv2wZrj-0

In retrospect, the computer makes a lot of assumptions as to what Scott wants by specifying there have been five Federation starships with the name "Enterprise" when all he asked for was the bridge of a ship named Enterprise. Though he did say "my ship", so maybe computers are more clever in 275 or so years. Or he got lucky on the Google search as that it the most requested thing on the NCC-1701-D when the name Enterprise is used.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't think it was so much an assumption on the computer's part as more of a default selection by its programmers. There have been instances before in which someone asked the computer something, was given a selection, and then had to be more specific.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

So, why was it the set designers couldn't match the set they built with the image from the establishing shot? Seems like a big production fail to me.