If we're giving the bad films do-overs, I'd be much more interested in fixes that would make them more enjoyable rather than ones that would allow me to "forgive" them.
What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.
- Thread starter GalaxyX
- Start date
hahahah
For all the TNG movies, that would take tossing away all the original scripts for all 4 movies, and coming up with something completely different for each one!
While I'm game for a FX makeover in the style of TMP-DE, for TFF, I have to agree that FX just wasn't the problem with Insurrection. I disliked the Baku to the point of utter disinterest. I had no interest in the fountain of youth, or the one-dimensional Sona. Ironically, the FX of the Briar Patch were the only thing in the theatrical screening to wow me. But home video just hadn't done that justice.
Strong points; TOS did have its share of false god stories, and how the crew--or specifcally Kirk--rejected charlatans or posers:
"Man has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient".
So it was not difficult to comprehend the plot of TFF, especially with Kirk's challenging:
"What does God need with a starship?"
From TOS to the movies, there's a consistent line of Kirk going head to head with those who would crown themselves God, when in his mind, he realized they were flase--not the real deal. It was the journey to this conclusion (TFF's script) which demanded work, but the basic idea was in keeping with classic TOS.
... AGREED!!!
I'm so glad John Logan wasn't on the scene, earlier. Imagine him having input on FIRST CONTACT? And if he didn't have his head rammed up Brent Spiner's ass in the first place, NEMESIS would never have happened! But movies like that do happen when the actors in it are given far too much control. Actors are pretty good, though, about pointing out to a director what's wrong with a scene. Unfortunately, though, their "solutions" generally tend to suck ...
I think this is one of the characteristics that gives TOS its charm.
And TFF is the most TOS movie out of them all, but it has a more contemporary feeling to it than the TOS takes on the "false gods" ideas.
I think conceptually TFF works, it's just unfortunate that the implementation was botched.
I would want to know more about the creature's prison. Why was it trapped on the planet? Who trapped it there? Why does it need a starship to escape rather than anything smaller. Seemed to fit fine in the shuttlecraft....
KaineMorrison
Lieutenant Commander
Nemesis - Remove any and ALL references and mentions of B4.
Yes. There's still plenty for Data/Spiner to do what with the Theleron threat and a perfect cloak.
Come to think of it, I could do without the Data secondary plot in every TNG movie.
KaineMorrison
Lieutenant Commander
I only saw Nemesis once and it was on Opening Day.
I felt the inclusion of B4 was such a cop out.
Why "kill" off Data, only to have all of his thoughts, memories and feelings implanted in B4? It cheapened Data's death!
I don't know what a Theleron is, nor the threat that, he/she/them/it posed.
I'll watch the movie again once Season 7 is out on Blu-Ray.
"Thalaron" is Voyager parlance at its worst.
Nemesis would have been much better if they had not had B4, not had the dune buggy chase or had Shinzon's final plan make sense rather than come out of nowhere.
Part of the reboot series but Into Darkness also suffered primarily from an underwhelming villain and way-contrived plot, find some way for Khan and maybe Marcus to be evil without it seeming so ridiculous.
Part of the reboot series but Into Darkness also suffered primarily from an underwhelming villain and way-contrived plot, find some way for Khan and maybe Marcus to be evil without it seeming so ridiculous.
I don't hate Generations.. but even if I did, I would forgive it because of the writers' commentary track. It's hilarious, insightful, and brilliant.
Um, I don't hate any of them, but there are ones I could like more if things were changed.
Star Trek IV - for one thing I would stick a James Horner soundtrack on it to complete the "trilogy". Oh, and more Saavik. I was sorry to see them leave her on Vulcan. I always thought she had earned her place to be in the crew in the previous two movies.
Star Trek V - definitely tone down the "humour". For example Scotty "I know this ship like the back of my hand" followed by slapstick hitting his head and falling down. I almost expected to see an ACME anvil falling down the lift shaft. Also fix the effects.
Star Trek VI - I love the movie as it is but I do wonder what it would have been like if they had used Saavik instead of creating a new character of Valeris. The reveal would have been a big shock on first viewing.
Generations - ideally start over with a new script. One where kirk's enterprise and Picard's enterprise meet. They could even use the nexus as the reason. But at least get Kirk on the Enterprise D.
Nemesis - I'll need to go back and rematch as it's been ages but definitely get rid of the big shiny Romulan shoulder pads.
Star Trek IV - for one thing I would stick a James Horner soundtrack on it to complete the "trilogy". Oh, and more Saavik. I was sorry to see them leave her on Vulcan. I always thought she had earned her place to be in the crew in the previous two movies.
Star Trek V - definitely tone down the "humour". For example Scotty "I know this ship like the back of my hand" followed by slapstick hitting his head and falling down. I almost expected to see an ACME anvil falling down the lift shaft. Also fix the effects.
Star Trek VI - I love the movie as it is but I do wonder what it would have been like if they had used Saavik instead of creating a new character of Valeris. The reveal would have been a big shock on first viewing.
Generations - ideally start over with a new script. One where kirk's enterprise and Picard's enterprise meet. They could even use the nexus as the reason. But at least get Kirk on the Enterprise D.
Nemesis - I'll need to go back and rematch as it's been ages but definitely get rid of the big shiny Romulan shoulder pads.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
I don't hate any of the Star Trek films.
They all have their flaws, some more than others. The each have their moments of greatness too.
Hating a movie that is genuinely objectionable and deserves the ire and hatred it gets for the content contained within (say, like, Captivity which I absolutely loathe) is a different story.
Hating a movie just because you didn't like it or because the outfits are silly or Uhura's hairstyle is inconsistent or for whatever other minuscule and silly reason strikes me as an extreme reaction and a waste of time and energy.
They all have their flaws, some more than others. The each have their moments of greatness too.
Hating a movie that is genuinely objectionable and deserves the ire and hatred it gets for the content contained within (say, like, Captivity which I absolutely loathe) is a different story.
Hating a movie just because you didn't like it or because the outfits are silly or Uhura's hairstyle is inconsistent or for whatever other minuscule and silly reason strikes me as an extreme reaction and a waste of time and energy.
The problem with the TNG movies (especially post-First Contact) is that there was no change or sense of permanence. They stagnated. Something needed to happen. I think this stagnation had its roots in the last few stale seasons of TNG and Rick Berman's poor leadership, but I won't go into that.
My ideas for what should have happened in the TNG movies:
Riker needed his own ship long before the end of Nemesis, at the end of First Contact at the latest. (The end of Generations would have been a good opportunity. What better time to leave the Enterprise than when it's been wrecked?) His entire character since the beginning of the series revolved around being an ambitious officer on his way up the ranks and looking forward to his own command. Sticking around under Picard for 15+ years just made him look like a loser. Of course, he still would have been part of the plot in the same way that Captain Sulu was, and another ship would have added a fresh new element to the saga. I think Riker more than anyone represented the complacency and stagnation of the entire series of TNG movies.
Someone needed to die before Nemesis. No main character had died since season 1 of the series, and we hardly even knew Yar. The permanence of death is meaningful and dramatic. It's one of the main reasons Wrath of Khan is so good, and it's one of the things I liked about Nemesis (minus Retardo-Data). TNG never really had its Empire Strikes Back, even if First Contact was rather dark. Imagine if Riker (having gotten his own command) had gone down with his ship near the end of First Contact after being partly assimilated, ship falling apart, implants sprouting from his face as he rams his ship into a Borg Sphere. Now that would have given Picard a good reason to trash his ready room, and made the Borg truly terrifying. (Sorry, I don't mean to make this post so Riker-heavy. The idea just popped into my head since I was on the topic of Riker.)
They needed intrigue. They needed a sense of largeness. The Enterprise was the flagship of the Federation. It should have been at the heart of whatever was going on in the Alpha Quadrant, whether that be a destructive superweapon, a shift in power, or a new alien threat. I realize making a Dominion War movie wouldn't really have worked since that was DS9's domain, but something big and threatening to the Federation (with lots of explosions) should have been going on. Pretty much all of the TOS movies besides III and V were like this and it's why they're great. Plus it's the movies for god sake! Think big! Instead we got whatever was going on in Insurrection. (It's so forgettable I don't even remember. Something about stretchy faced aliens?). In Nemesis they realized this somewhat with the assassination of the Romulan senate and Earth being in danger, but the whole affair still seemed insignificant compared to even some of the original TOS episodes (think Doomsday Machine, The Changeling, etc.) and they had caught on too late in the series to start introducing some truly exciting elements in Nemesis (and partly screwing those up as well).
It seems I'm one of the few people who actually really likes Generations though, and I have almost no criticisms of that movie, so take my opinions with a grain of salt I suppose.
My ideas for what should have happened in the TNG movies:
Riker needed his own ship long before the end of Nemesis, at the end of First Contact at the latest. (The end of Generations would have been a good opportunity. What better time to leave the Enterprise than when it's been wrecked?) His entire character since the beginning of the series revolved around being an ambitious officer on his way up the ranks and looking forward to his own command. Sticking around under Picard for 15+ years just made him look like a loser. Of course, he still would have been part of the plot in the same way that Captain Sulu was, and another ship would have added a fresh new element to the saga. I think Riker more than anyone represented the complacency and stagnation of the entire series of TNG movies.
Someone needed to die before Nemesis. No main character had died since season 1 of the series, and we hardly even knew Yar. The permanence of death is meaningful and dramatic. It's one of the main reasons Wrath of Khan is so good, and it's one of the things I liked about Nemesis (minus Retardo-Data). TNG never really had its Empire Strikes Back, even if First Contact was rather dark. Imagine if Riker (having gotten his own command) had gone down with his ship near the end of First Contact after being partly assimilated, ship falling apart, implants sprouting from his face as he rams his ship into a Borg Sphere. Now that would have given Picard a good reason to trash his ready room, and made the Borg truly terrifying. (Sorry, I don't mean to make this post so Riker-heavy. The idea just popped into my head since I was on the topic of Riker.)
They needed intrigue. They needed a sense of largeness. The Enterprise was the flagship of the Federation. It should have been at the heart of whatever was going on in the Alpha Quadrant, whether that be a destructive superweapon, a shift in power, or a new alien threat. I realize making a Dominion War movie wouldn't really have worked since that was DS9's domain, but something big and threatening to the Federation (with lots of explosions) should have been going on. Pretty much all of the TOS movies besides III and V were like this and it's why they're great. Plus it's the movies for god sake! Think big! Instead we got whatever was going on in Insurrection. (It's so forgettable I don't even remember. Something about stretchy faced aliens?). In Nemesis they realized this somewhat with the assassination of the Romulan senate and Earth being in danger, but the whole affair still seemed insignificant compared to even some of the original TOS episodes (think Doomsday Machine, The Changeling, etc.) and they had caught on too late in the series to start introducing some truly exciting elements in Nemesis (and partly screwing those up as well).
It seems I'm one of the few people who actually really likes Generations though, and I have almost no criticisms of that movie, so take my opinions with a grain of salt I suppose.
Every movie has one defining flaw that hurts it most, no matter how much you like or hate it.
TMP's biggest flaw, worse than the pacing, is that the sense of camaraderie between the crew is hampered by Spock wrestling with the kolinahr and Kirk's depression over having been stuck at his desk, leading to his obsession with getting the Enterprise back and being "relevant". So the gamble in TMP was to present two of the key cast-members feeling miserable, which made sense as far as tying things to V'Ger having its own existential crisis, but is ultimately not crowd-pleasing.
TMP should have allowed Kirk to soften more and to have more light-hearted moments than what we got. We got a hint of humor like when Ilia punched her way through the wall, but Kirk didn't pounce on it. The perfect balance of serious/fun was struck in Khan instead. In Khan, Kirk is again feeling unsatisfied in a deskjob just like TMP. But he's not as repressed about it and he doesn't lash out at others.
TMP's biggest flaw, worse than the pacing, is that the sense of camaraderie between the crew is hampered by Spock wrestling with the kolinahr and Kirk's depression over having been stuck at his desk, leading to his obsession with getting the Enterprise back and being "relevant". So the gamble in TMP was to present two of the key cast-members feeling miserable, which made sense as far as tying things to V'Ger having its own existential crisis, but is ultimately not crowd-pleasing.
TMP should have allowed Kirk to soften more and to have more light-hearted moments than what we got. We got a hint of humor like when Ilia punched her way through the wall, but Kirk didn't pounce on it. The perfect balance of serious/fun was struck in Khan instead. In Khan, Kirk is again feeling unsatisfied in a deskjob just like TMP. But he's not as repressed about it and he doesn't lash out at others.
I don't hate any of them - some of them are just... disappointing. (And some of those are more disappointing than others.)
What would it take me to forgive? Easy... let me direct the next one!
I have to say, I loved the ideas here about how to improve Nemesis. Shinzon looking down and laughing.. genius!
The thing that bothers me about B4 is... so Brent Spiner was concerned about getting too old to play Data. But didn't they mention in "Inheritance" that Data had an aging program? Problem solved! And instead of going after Earth, Shinzon should've gone after Romulus with Picard and Co. forced to intervene.
What would it take me to forgive? Easy... let me direct the next one!
I have to say, I loved the ideas here about how to improve Nemesis. Shinzon looking down and laughing.. genius!
The thing that bothers me about B4 is... so Brent Spiner was concerned about getting too old to play Data. But didn't they mention in "Inheritance" that Data had an aging program? Problem solved! And instead of going after Earth, Shinzon should've gone after Romulus with Picard and Co. forced to intervene.
The title of this thread is somewhat misleading although I get the intent. It should say, "What would it take to make a film more acceptable?" or something along those lines.
TMP - When I look at it overall I find they weren't far off the mark. I still like the film, but it needed an injection of additional character drama to make it more than just about discovering what Vger is.
TWOK - There are things to like in this and a lot that pisses me off. To that end it needed a smart rewrite to fix a lot of the stupid logic flaws. This would include Nicholas Meyer's dumbing down of the Enterprise herself. That would make it a lot more acceptable even though I'd still hate those stupid looking uniforms.
TSFS - Same beefs as with TWOK.
TVH - Despite some decent moments and occasional smirks I really don't care for this film. It would need a complete rewrite from scratch.
TFF - In some respects this felt like a more genuine TOS episode. The music is very nice. There's a worthy idea behind it. I could even grudgingly live with the second-rate f/x, but the lame overdone humour would have to go. Fixing some of the ideas not well thought out would help, too. As flawed as TFF is I still like it better than TVH.
TUC - They laid it on too thick that this was the end of the line for the TOS crew. I also didn't care for Meyer making the crew behave so openly racist.
GEN - The only thing that would salvage this is a complete rewrite from scratch. Better yet scrap the whole thing and forget about doing a crossover.
FC - The biggest things that piss me off about this story is how the crew deal with time travel. They make no genuine effort to conceal who they are. That and what they did to the character of Zafram Cochrane.
INS, NEM, ST09 and STID - complete wastes of film. Each would have to be thoroughly reconsidered and redone from the bottom up. Actually if none of these had been made we would all have been better for it.
TMP - When I look at it overall I find they weren't far off the mark. I still like the film, but it needed an injection of additional character drama to make it more than just about discovering what Vger is.
TWOK - There are things to like in this and a lot that pisses me off. To that end it needed a smart rewrite to fix a lot of the stupid logic flaws. This would include Nicholas Meyer's dumbing down of the Enterprise herself. That would make it a lot more acceptable even though I'd still hate those stupid looking uniforms.
TSFS - Same beefs as with TWOK.
TVH - Despite some decent moments and occasional smirks I really don't care for this film. It would need a complete rewrite from scratch.
TFF - In some respects this felt like a more genuine TOS episode. The music is very nice. There's a worthy idea behind it. I could even grudgingly live with the second-rate f/x, but the lame overdone humour would have to go. Fixing some of the ideas not well thought out would help, too. As flawed as TFF is I still like it better than TVH.
TUC - They laid it on too thick that this was the end of the line for the TOS crew. I also didn't care for Meyer making the crew behave so openly racist.
GEN - The only thing that would salvage this is a complete rewrite from scratch. Better yet scrap the whole thing and forget about doing a crossover.
FC - The biggest things that piss me off about this story is how the crew deal with time travel. They make no genuine effort to conceal who they are. That and what they did to the character of Zafram Cochrane.
INS, NEM, ST09 and STID - complete wastes of film. Each would have to be thoroughly reconsidered and redone from the bottom up. Actually if none of these had been made we would all have been better for it.
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