Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

[Nightdiamond]

24th century "enlightened" folks don't eat meat, except when they do.

Also, they don't enslave animals for food, but they keep them in cages for display?

But there, the organization that ordered Picard to engage in the war games in the first place was Starfleet itself. Starfleet retains the services of a war game expert. So how common are the beliefs spoken by Picard and Riker among their fellow officers within Starfleet?

I understand in part, what Picard is saying, but here you have a flag officer, showing disdain for war games which is just an exercise or preparation, like drilling.

So if a war happens, they'll just rely on scientific analyzing and come up with a solution? This looks like a typical Utopian statement from that season.

How exactly did Worf offing Duras interfere with his ability to do his job? Besides, even if it did, there's 'AWOL' (Absent WithOut Leave) that would've been the appropriate reason to discipline Worf.

He was a major political figure too though. Worf later on rescued Jadzia against orders and Sisko told him he probably wouldn't get a command of his own after that. Accumulated record.

The more I rewatch TNG, the more I get the idea that, instead of the Federation flagship, maybe the Enterprise-D is actually the default ship for oddballs who, while still useful in certain situations, really just don't get what Starfleet is all about.

A starfleet captain who doesn't believe in war games.

In "Chain of Command" you should see Jericho's face when the crew argues that whole Cardassian fleet was stationed in the nebulae because of scientific research.

 

[BillJ]

He was a major political figure too though. Worf later on rescued Jadzia against orders and Sisko told him he probably wouldn't get a command of his own after that. Accumulated record.

It seems that major political figures aren't protected from breaking the law in the Klingon Empire.

 

[T'Girl]

He was a major political figure too though. Worf later on rescued Jadzia against orders and Sisko told him he probably wouldn't get a command of his own after that. Accumulated record.

Right at the start in Farpoint, when Picard gave command of the saucer section to Worf, Worf argued with his commander over this relatively straight forward assignment. I wonder if that went into his record as well?

 

[Tiberius]

I gotta disagree. Culture is fine, but no one should let it stand in the way of doing their job. How would you feel if your Muslim bus driver suddenly stopped in the middle of the road, got out his prayer mat and started praying?

Huh? We're not talking about an everyday prayer that can be factored into breaks and lunch. (You do realize that non-Muslim bus drivers take time everyday for things like lunch and bathroom breaks with passengers sitting on the bus?) We're talking about someone legally remedying the murder of their spouse. Worf followed the laws of his people.

How exactly did Worf offing Duras interfere with his ability to do his job? Besides, even if it did, there's 'AWOL' (Absent WithOut Leave) that would've been the appropriate reason to discipline Worf.

Picard allowed his distaste for another mans culture to color his judgement in the matter.

The fact is that Duras committed a crime against a Federation citizen aboard a Federation starship. And then another Federation citizen decided to ignore Federation laws and instead impose Klingon laws. There was no Klingon jurisdiction, and so Klingon law should not have come into play.

 

[T'Girl]

There was no Klingon jurisdiction, and so Klingon law should not have come into play.

Modern day, US Navy warships are sovereign American territory, even if in a foreign port and tied up to a pier

Combat took place on Klingon territory, Worf apparently followed the correct forms by declaring that Duras killed his mate and then challenging Duras. Duras accepted the challenge in front of witnesses.

Subsequent to Duras' death, Klingon authorities (who did have jurisdiction) communicated that they had no legal problem with Worf's actions.

It would be like if Worf walked from San Diego across the border bridge into Tijuana, and did something that was perfectly legal there.

And then returned.

 

[BillJ]

The fact is that Duras committed a crime against a Federation citizen aboard a Federation starship. And then another Federation citizen decided to ignore Federation laws and instead impose Klingon laws. There was no Klingon jurisdiction, and so Klingon law should not have come into play.

Obviously, both Federation and Klingon officials disagreed with your reading of the situation.

 

[Nightdiamond]

On the Klingon side, they considered the matter closed, but Picard didn't.

Starfleet couldn't press charges because he technically didn't break any law on Federation property.

Under Federation law he probably would have considered committing first degree murder.

I think the Federation was worried that Duras was a candidate to throne.


It's ironic that he wasn't charged with anything at all. Also a few years later Worf got promoted twice.

But--are there any incidents where human Starfleet officers did something similar and didn't get punished either? Like Dax?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The fact is that Duras committed a crime against a Federation citizen aboard a Federation starship.

Perhaps. And if Starfleet security officers had gotten hold of Duras first, Duras would have been arrested and charged under Federation law. Worf would have probably considered the matter closed if that had happened.

But Worf got there first. He handled the situation according to strict Klingon law: Duras killed Worf's mate, so Worf killed Duras in revenge. The location of the crime was irrelevant.

Worf didn't kill Duras because Duras killed a Federation ambassador; he did it because Duras killed K'Ehleyr. The fact that she was a Federation government official did not come into play. That's not why Worf killed Duras. Worf did it only because K'Ehleyr was his mate. That's the only reason that existed. And the only reason Worf required.

And then another Federation citizen decided to ignore Federation laws and instead impose Klingon laws. There was no Klingon jurisdiction

There wasn't anything BUT Klingon jurisdiction. See below.

Under Federation law he probably would have considered committing first degree murder.

The incident was a Klingon rite, occurred on a Klingon vessel, and involved only Klingons, so Federation law does not apply.

Now perhaps Picard was still within his rights to reprimand Worf. IIRC, a captain can place a reprimand in a subordinate's file for pretty much any reason they want. But this struck me as a formality - something Picard did just because he had to do it. He would look weak if he just let it go, so he put in a reprimand that really had no lasting consequences on Worf's career.

 

[T'Girl]

Under Federation law he probably would have considered committing first degree murder.

Vulcan's engage in death duels. So why would the Federation create a law against such?

While non-canon, the novel-verse has the Vulcan pon farr death duels persisting through the late 24th century.

Even though Worf was raised by Humans, and likely possesses a Earth (or Federation) citizenship, Worf also is a citizen of the Empire by birth and bloodline.

Duras, if he was caught on the Enterprise immediately following K'Ehleyr's murder, it's possible that Picard wouldn't have been unable to hold him for any period of time.

Diplomatic immunity.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Gowron would have probably been extra-well motivated to either 1) extradite Duras back to the Empire for execution, or 2) allow the Federation to imprison him, in which case Duras would have probably killed himself out of shame.

 

[Tiberius]

The fact is that Duras committed a crime against a Federation citizen aboard a Federation starship.

Perhaps. And if Starfleet security officers had gotten hold of Duras first, Duras would have been arrested and charged under Federation law. Worf would have probably considered the matter closed if that had happened.

But Worf got there first. He handled the situation according to strict Klingon law: Duras killed Worf's mate, so Worf killed Duras in revenge. The location of the crime was irrelevant.

First of all, Worf IS a Starfleet security officer!

Secondly, why is the location of what Worf did irrelevant? If Worf had done it on the Enterprise, would things have been the same?

Worf didn't kill Duras because Duras killed a Federation ambassador; he did it because Duras killed K'Ehleyr. The fact that she was a Federation government official did not come into play. That's not why Worf killed Duras. Worf did it only because K'Ehleyr was his mate. That's the only reason that existed. And the only reason Worf required.

That doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact the K'Ehleyr was a Federation citizen. The law should not ignore facts just because Worf decided to.

And then another Federation citizen decided to ignore Federation laws and instead impose Klingon laws. There was no Klingon jurisdiction

There wasn't anything BUT Klingon jurisdiction. See below.

The incident was a Klingon rite, occurred on a Klingon vessel, and involved only Klingons, so Federation law does not apply.

So you're just ignoring the murder of a Federation citizen then? When a Federation citizen is murdered on a Federation starship, then it is quite clear that the Federation has jurisdiction. Worf ignored that and took actions into his own hands.

Anyone can commit a crime in their own country by simply going somewhere where it is legal? Murdering someone in Australia is illegal, but let's say that's it's perfectly legal in New Zealand. Is it okay for me to take someone to New Zealand for the purpose of killing them? Legally, it might be, but would you think it's an acceptable course of action?

 

[USS KG5]

He was a major political figure too though. Worf later on rescued Jadzia against orders and Sisko told him he probably wouldn't get a command of his own after that. Accumulated record.

Right at the start in Farpoint, when Picard gave command of the saucer section to Worf, Worf argued with his commander over this relatively straight forward assignment. I wonder if that went into his record as well?

Apologies for quoting this one post, I'm not picking on anyone.

Farpoint was REALLLLLYYY badly written, as were much of the first two seasons. Even the later good TNG episodes have dated horribly when compared to modern TV.

A lot of the attitudes written in really on do really include outright racism (the planet of the black savages) stupid plotlines about the prime directive (of course Picard wasn't going to let the thicko natives kill Wesley, there is no drama here) oh and lots of laughing at your own audience, I'm looking at you "The Neutral Zone"...

Its hard to rationalise any of this with the much better more balanced writing that took over for all the remaining years.

Just as TOS will always have to live with "women can't get their pretty little heads round running a starship" we will all have to pretend we didn't notice the piles of tripe in TNG.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When a Federation citizen is murdered on a Federation starship, then it is quite clear that the Federation has jurisdiction.

The problem with that is that Duras retreated to the safety of his ship - his KLINGON ship - after he killed K'Ehleyr. The Vorn was sovereign Klingon territory, so the Federation couldn't touch him there.

Worf IS a Starfleet security officer!

So? He wasn't ACTING as one when he killed Duras.

Worf did not use his status as a Starfleet officer to affect change; he was just acting as a normal Klingon citizen. He was exercising his rights as a Klingon - in this situation, nothing else matters. Worf's status in the Federation, and in Starfleet, was completely irrelevant in this case.

Worf and K'Ehleyr were Federation citizens, yes. But they were also Klingons. Their citizenship in the Empire was still valid - they didn't stop being Klingons just because they lived in the Federation. The Federation MUST respect the rights and traditions of all of its members. It wouldn't be a legitimate governmental body if it didn't.

And because Worf and K'Ehleyr were Klingons, Klingon law still applied to them. Worf killed Duras according to Klingon law and tradition, and since Worf is a Klingon, he is in the clear and above prosecution.

 

[Nightdiamond]

.There wasn't anything BUT Klingon jurisdiction. The incident was a Klingon rite, occurred on a Klingon vessel, and involved only Klingons, so Federation law does not apply.

But what about the incident on DS9 where Worf challenged,fought and killed Gowron. It was legal by Klingon law, but occured on a Federation station-- no reprimand, no charges.

Duras, if he was caught on the Enterprise immediately following K'Ehleyr's murder, it's possible that Picard wouldn't have been unable to hold him for any period of time. Diplomatic immunity.

And risk a war with the Klingons? The Federation would have let him go. I just have that feeling. Diplomatic hot button. Diplomatic immunity.

First of all, Worf IS a Starfleet security officer!

Secondly, why is the location of what Worf did irrelevant? If Worf had done it on the Enterprise, would things have been the same?

See "Tacking into The Wind". Is what Worf did legal? Is what Sisko told him legal?

....stupid plotlines about the prime directive (of course Picard wasn't going to let the thicko natives kill Wesley, there is no drama here)

I agree, but you know what's so funny...it was taken very seriously. They actually considered the possibility even for a brief moment which brings out the weird Utopian messages.

Just to show how far out it had become, in Pen Pals, when the crew is discussing the prime directive, instead sticking to legal/moral terms, they were using metaphysical terms like "fate" and "cosmic plan" .

The thing is, when you first watch things like this, it will slip right by you, because it seem like a normal part of a conversation.

 

[Tiberius]

.There wasn't anything BUT Klingon jurisdiction. The incident was a Klingon rite, occurred on a Klingon vessel, and involved only Klingons, so Federation law does not apply.

But what about the incident on DS9 where Worf challenged,fought and killed Gowron. It was legal by Klingon law, but occured on a Federation station-- no reprimand, no charges.

And...

First of all, Worf IS a Starfleet security officer!

Secondly, why is the location of what Worf did irrelevant? If Worf had done it on the Enterprise, would things have been the same?

See "Tacking into The Wind". Is what Worf did legal? Is what Sisko told him legal?

Probably not, but then, it was wartime and Gowron was risking the safety of the quadrant. I think that this was one of those times when the greater good overrode any legal issues. Wouldn't be the first time that people have committed illegal acts to defeat the bad guys.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In neither of these situations (killing Duras OR Gowron) did Worf ever commit an illegal act.

Like I said: The Federation respects - indeed, it MUST respect - the traditions and laws of its members and allies. In both of these situations, Worf acted only as a citizen of the Klingon Empire, and he did so entirely within the dictates of Klingon law. Therefore, the Federation can't do anything about it, nor should it.

If the Federation had attempted to interfere in either of these situations, it would have been a violation of the Prime Directive.

 

[DWF]

If the Federation had attempted to interfere in either of these situations, it would have been a violation of the Prime Directive.

I was always under the impression that the Prime Directive only applied to races that hadn't developed FTL travel yet.

 

[T'Girl]

That doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact the K'Ehleyr was a Federation citizen.

If Duras killed ambassador Sarek, surely you don't think Worf's actions would have been the same?

 

[Tiberius]

That doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact the K'Ehleyr was a Federation citizen.

If Duras killed ambassador Sarek, surely you don't think Worf's actions would have been the same?

Probably not. Worf was acting on his emotions. But that doesn't excuse what he did.

 

[Tiberius]

When a Federation citizen is murdered on a Federation starship, then it is quite clear that the Federation has jurisdiction.

The problem with that is that Duras retreated to the safety of his ship - his KLINGON ship - after he killed K'Ehleyr. The Vorn was sovereign Klingon territory, so the Federation couldn't touch him there.

Which makes what Worf did even worse. The Federation should have sought to extradite Duras to answer for his crimes in a Federation court.

Worf IS a Starfleet security officer!

So? He wasn't ACTING as one when he killed Duras.

Worf did not use his status as a Starfleet officer to affect change; he was just acting as a normal Klingon citizen. He was exercising his rights as a Klingon - in this situation, nothing else matters. Worf's status in the Federation, and in Starfleet, was completely irrelevant in this case.

Worf and K'Ehleyr were Federation citizens, yes. But they were also Klingons. Their citizenship in the Empire was still valid - they didn't stop being Klingons just because they lived in the Federation. The Federation MUST respect the rights and traditions of all of its members. It wouldn't be a legitimate governmental body if it didn't.

And because Worf and K'Ehleyr were Klingons, Klingon law still applied to them. Worf killed Duras according to Klingon law and tradition, and since Worf is a Klingon, he is in the clear and above prosecution.

Let's say a Klingon named K'Splatt came on board the Enteprise and pissed Worf off. K'Splatt didn't think Worf was a Klingon and so, as soon as he beams on board, says some grave insult that a true Klingon could only answer with a fight to the death. Worf then says, "What I do now, I do as a Klingon, not a STarfleet officer," and kills K'Splatt on the transporter pad in front of Picard, Riker and O'Brien.

Would Picard be okay with this? SHOULD Picard be okay with this?