Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

[BillJ]

I'm noticing a theme in the posts from people who are more critical of Picard that I'd like for you all to clarify: Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

Definitely attitude. One of the things that eventually led me to not liking the character as much, was his handling of Worf during "Reunion". At the end of the episode, he reprimands Worf for handling the murder of his spouse in the way of his people.

It showed me that Picard had no real respect for other cultures. It's where the differences with TOS really began to show. In TOS, they were out learning about the universe. In TNG, they came across as missionaries teaching the unwashed masses how great humanity was.

 

[Last Redshirt]

I'm noticing a theme in the posts from people who are more critical of Picard that I'd like for you all to clarify: Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

His attitude. As much as I love TNG, early on and even in the later seasons, Picard and the senior officers seemed like a bunch of smug assholes spouting the later Roddenberry ideals of utopia and advancement of humanity, and how superior they were to the people of old. Just watch The Neutral Zone and see how he, and the rest, talk to the people who they just unfroze.

 

[BillJ]

I'm noticing a theme in the posts from people who are more critical of Picard that I'd like for you all to clarify: Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

His attitude. As much as I love TNG, early on and even in the later seasons, Picard and the senior officers seemed like a bunch of smug assholes spouting the later Roddenberry ideals of utopia and advancement of humanity, and how superior they were to the people of old. Just watch The Neutral Zone and see how he, and the rest, talk to the people who they just unfroze.

Much like Jellico in "Chain of Command", I tend to give Picard a pass here. He was on the cusp of possible war with the Romulans and the 20th century humans really did represent a distraction.

 

[Last Redshirt]

I'm noticing a theme in the posts from people who are more critical of Picard that I'd like for you all to clarify: Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

His attitude. As much as I love TNG, early on and even in the later seasons, Picard and the senior officers seemed like a bunch of smug assholes spouting the later Roddenberry ideals of utopia and advancement of humanity, and how superior they were to the people of old. Just watch The Neutral Zone and see how he, and the rest, talk to the people who they just unfroze.

Much like Jellico in "Chain of Command", I tend to give Picard a pass here. He was on the cusp of possible war with the Romulans and the 20th century humans really did represent a distraction.

But wasn't what he said to them before the whole thing with the Romulans? Or is my memory of the episode not up to par? The Neutral Zone isn't very high on my list of episodes to rewatch.

 

[T'Girl]

Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

Really it's the man's attitude. In somewhat similar situations the other Captain come off (at least initially) as humbler, polite and more reasonable.

Perhaps it's in part because the other Captains get off their ships more, what people write about Picard is true, he's pompous and arrogant.

... his handling of Worf during "Reunion". At the end of the episode, he reprimands Worf for handling the murder of his spouse in the way of his people.

If events in Amok Time had gone differently, would Kirk have officially reprimanded Spock for fighting and killing Stonn?

Worf didn't do things as Picard would have done, Picard apparently could not understand this and reprimanded Worf.

 

[BillJ]

His attitude. As much as I love TNG, early on and even in the later seasons, Picard and the senior officers seemed like a bunch of smug assholes spouting the later Roddenberry ideals of utopia and advancement of humanity, and how superior they were to the people of old. Just watch The Neutral Zone and see how he, and the rest, talk to the people who they just unfroze.

Much like Jellico in "Chain of Command", I tend to give Picard a pass here. He was on the cusp of possible war with the Romulans and the 20th century humans really did represent a distraction.

But wasn't what he said to them before the whole thing with the Romulans? Or is my memory of the episode not up to par? The Neutral Zone isn't very high on my list of episodes to rewatch.

I, personally, like "The Neutral Zone" (I love TNG season one).

Picard is gone at the beginning of the episode having a conference with Starfleet Command. When he returns he orders the Enterprise to head to the Neutral Zone.

So his mind is on war with the Romulans for the whole episode. Which is why I tend to give him a pass.

 

[HIjol]

Wow...candid and direct...here is another take...

(With apologies to Barry Manilow and his song, "I Write the Songs")

Writers write the lines that make the characters speak
Writers write the lines, and the Director sees
Writers write the lines that give the actors signs
Writers write the lines, they write the lines...

And the Actors dance their dance
And give interpretation a chance
And they "match" their attitude
With Script and direction

But if a pompous ass he is
Then maybe our ass he can kiss
But he tries
To get lines
And direction in time oh

Picard and Stewart may turn out much the same
But it could be "they" should not get the bla-aame
Directors, Writers and Producers, to-oo-oo
They steer the show, they steer the show

He is Jean-Luc (he is Patrick) and he says the liiiiiiiiiinnnnneeeeeeessssss.

 

[The Rock]

^^^ or that the upper echelons of the Admiralty were infiltrated by brain-hacking bugs in "Conspiracy" or shape-shifting aliens during the Dominion War?

Yes, Starfleet is just as ruthless as any major power and is willing to act accordingly in order to maintain its existence

The Conspiracy bugs and the Founders were outside infiltrators and their actions can't be attributed to Starfleet as a whole.

Yes, but the point was that the Federation executive branch probably never publically admitted to being infiltrated from said outside forces, either to keep its citizenry from panicking, or to keep its enemies from perceiving it as week - or both. At least, not that has been ever seen on-screen. The books might have some additional information on this front.

Also, do you seriously think that Starfleet is as ruthless as the Borg, or the Dominion, or the Cardassians, or the Klingons?

Certain aspects of it, yes (although I don't think including the Borg there is quite fair in this context - their motivations and goals are a bit different than the other non-assimilated races of the galaxy) - and inwardly, not so obvious on the outside. When you think about it, that makes it much more insidious. At least the other powers who have such organizations are up-front with their existence. Section 31 is the ex-felon uncle in the Federation family that nobody wants to talk about. How many Fed citizens really know of its existence and, more importantly, what it does in the name of preservation of their way of life?

Odo summed it up nicely when he pointed out that the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order and the Romulans had the Tal'Shiar - it made sense that any great power would have such an organization. Whether it's right or wrong is an entirely different debate and up to individual interpretation.

The thing is, I don't believe Section 31 is condoned by Starfleet. In fact, Section 31 may consist of just a few people.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Picard may have been dismissive of Claire Raymond, Ralph Offenhouse and the guitar guy, but notice in Time's Arrow, he was like Ralph Kramden "Hamina..hamina..hamina.." with regard to Samuel Clemens!

 

[T'Girl]

Picard may have been dismissive of Claire Raymond, Ralph Offenhouse and the guitar guy ...

Compare Picard treatment of them to Kirk's treatment of Abraham Lincoln. Senior officers in dress uniforms, musical ruffles and flourishes, and a tour of the bridge.

Picard...
Well, they're alive now.
We're going to have to treat them as living human beings.
Well, then we have no other choice.

That was while the ship was still days away from the Neutral Zone, and before Picard had spoke to any of the three.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The Conspiracy bugs and the Founders were outside infiltrators and their actions can't be attributed to Starfleet as a whole.

Yes, but the point was that the Federation executive branch probably never publically admitted to being infiltrated from said outside forces, either to keep its citizenry from panicking, or to keep its enemies from perceiving it as week - or both. At least, not that has been ever seen on-screen. The books might have some additional information on this front.

Also, do you seriously think that Starfleet is as ruthless as the Borg, or the Dominion, or the Cardassians, or the Klingons?

Certain aspects of it, yes (although I don't think including the Borg there is quite fair in this context - their motivations and goals are a bit different than the other non-assimilated races of the galaxy) - and inwardly, not so obvious on the outside. When you think about it, that makes it much more insidious. At least the other powers who have such organizations are up-front with their existence. Section 31 is the ex-felon uncle in the Federation family that nobody wants to talk about. How many Fed citizens really know of its existence and, more importantly, what it does in the name of preservation of their way of life?

Odo summed it up nicely when he pointed out that the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order and the Romulans had the Tal'Shiar - it made sense that any great power would have such an organization. Whether it's right or wrong is an entirely different debate and up to individual interpretation.

The thing is, I don't believe Section 31 is condoned by Starfleet. In fact, Section 31 may consist of just a few people.

Nor is it condemned. It's been a long time since I watched DS9, so details are a little hazy, but IIRC it had not only been known about by the Admiralty but also in active collaboration, at least by Ross in the Prime Universe, and by Marcus in the NuTrek universe. In the latter, I gathered S31 was even more tacitly accepted and more entrenched in Starfleet Operations.

Either way, such an organization could not continue to operate without having a few Admirals in their back pocket, either vis-a-vis blackmail or fully uncoerced cooperation through a shared philosophy.

But I would agree that such an organization would not have that many people, but only a select few, hand-picked directly from the cream of Starfleet Academy graduates. I would even go so far as suspecting that, more times than not, S31 memberships are of Red Squad pedigree. Members likely have a particular fanatical jingoism to be selected for such activities.

 

[varek]

To me, I'll always think that Quark said it best about 24th-Century Humans when he was talking to Nog:

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people--as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people...will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon..."

It's easy to spout holier-than-thou or evolved sensibility sentiments when you speak from a position of strength or when you have the upper hand. It's a lot harder to live that way when things aren't going so well (I think that was something that Kirk understood).

"Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums."

Quark was right, but I believe the Federation was trying to improve its character, as the Vulcans tried to control their emotions through logic. There is always hope.

 

[Nightdiamond]

In TNG particularly seasons 1 and 2 there are a number of super Utopian statements and ideals in the episodes.

Most of them are in casual conversations you'll easily miss if you don't pay attention.

--24th century humans don't seem to fear death compared to 20th century humans.

--people don't watch TV or any type of TV style entertainment, it's all about plays, ballets and concerts.

--They experiment with trying to create the perfect humans with telepathy, enhance immune systems etc. all approved by the Federation.

--They're very pacifistic and don't have a military; Starfleet is an exploration organization and its officers don't like to participate in war games for training.

--Federation culture is more enlightened than other cultures and many of them shouldn't possess ships or weapons or should be monitored very closely.


It's getting kind of popular to 'bash' Trek for being self righteous and hypocritical, but when you watch an episode in hindsight it's hard to avoid.

I'M 50/50 on the issue. On the one hand, I like what humans have become, but when you watch certain episodes, they do lay it on really thick.

 

[BillJ]

--They're very pacifistic and don't have a military; Starfleet is an exploration organization and its officers don't like to participate in war games for training.

This is how Picard and Riker see Starfleet. But we know that overall, they are the military and that Starfleet keeps sending out ships that are armed to the teeth and can hang with a Romulan Warbird.

--Federation culture is more enlightened than other cultures and many of them shouldn't possess ships or weapons or should be monitored very closely.

This is an element that pretty much runs through the entire series.

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, I'll always think that Quark said it best about 24th-Century Humans when he was talking to Nog:

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people--as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people...will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon..."

It's easy to spout holier-than-thou or evolved sensibility sentiments when you speak from a position of strength or when you have the upper hand. It's a lot harder to live that way when things aren't going so well (I think that was something that Kirk understood).

"Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums."

Quark was right, but I believe the Federation was trying to improve its character, as the Vulcans tried to control their emotions through logic. There is always hope.

It's always about trying to improve, but the point both Quark and Kirk were making was that Humans weren't perfect.

 

[Nightdiamond]

--Federation culture is more enlightened than other cultures and many of them shouldn't possess ships or weapons or should be monitored very closely.

This is an element that pretty much runs through the entire series.

But the way Riker says it, it sounds arrogant. Technically maybe he was right, but it still comes off as arrogant.

This is the example:

RIKER: I find them very much as we were a few hundred years ago... but with the technology we have now. They're very dangerous...

RIKER: But we can hardly hate what we once were. They may grow and learn...

But remember--compare this to what Quark said about humans a few years later on DS9. Very interesting.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm noticing a theme in the posts from people who are more critical of Picard that I'd like for you all to clarify: Is it a matter of style or attitude that you object to, or is it his intellectual positions?

Definitely attitude. One of the things that eventually led me to not liking the character as much, was his handling of Worf during "Reunion". At the end of the episode, he reprimands Worf for handling the murder of his spouse in the way of his people.

It showed me that Picard had no real respect for other cultures. It's where the differences with TOS really began to show. In TOS, they were out learning about the universe. In TNG, they came across as missionaries teaching the unwashed masses how great humanity was.

I gotta disagree. Culture is fine, but no one should let it stand in the way of doing their job. How would you feel if your Muslim bus driver suddenly stopped in the middle of the road, got out his prayer mat and started praying?

 

[T'Girl]

In TNG particularly seasons 1 and 2 there are a number of super Utopian statements and ideals in the episodes.

24th century "enlightened" folks don't eat meat, except when they do.

Starfleet is an exploration organization and its officers don't like to participate in war games for training.

But there, the organization that ordered Picard to engage in the war games in the first place was Starfleet itself. Starfleet retains the services of a war game expert. So how common are the beliefs spoken by Picard and Riker among their fellow officers within Starfleet?

but when you watch certain episodes, they do lay it on really thick.

I've compare this in the past to people reciting indoctrinated political slogans.

If you compare Picard's statements on money in FC, to Jake Sisko's statement's on the same subject on DS9, they're word for word.

 

[BillJ]

I gotta disagree. Culture is fine, but no one should let it stand in the way of doing their job. How would you feel if your Muslim bus driver suddenly stopped in the middle of the road, got out his prayer mat and started praying?

Huh? We're not talking about an everyday prayer that can be factored into breaks and lunch. (You do realize that non-Muslim bus drivers take time everyday for things like lunch and bathroom breaks with passengers sitting on the bus?) We're talking about someone legally remedying the murder of their spouse. Worf followed the laws of his people.

How exactly did Worf offing Duras interfere with his ability to do his job? Besides, even if it did, there's 'AWOL' (Absent WithOut Leave) that would've been the appropriate reason to discipline Worf.

Picard allowed his distaste for another mans culture to color his judgement in the matter.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

24th century "enlightened" folks don't eat meat, except when they do.

My theory is that, somewhere between the time of Kirk and Picard, a Great Philosopher came along and revolutionized the practicing of Federation ideals by re-popularizing the concept of "do as I say, not as I do."

But there, the organization that ordered Picard to engage in the war games in the first place was Starfleet itself. Starfleet retains the services of a war game expert. So how common are the beliefs spoken by Picard and Riker among their fellow officers within Starfleet?

The more I rewatch TNG, the more I get the idea that, instead of the Federation flagship, maybe the Enterprise-D is actually the default ship for oddballs who, while still useful in certain situations, really just don't get what Starfleet is all about.