Mister Fandango
Fleet Captain
No! <puts his foot down> Eyepatch or bust.
Orphan Black - Season 2 Discussion
- Thread starter tomalak301
- Start date
Mister Fandango
Fleet Captain
Nein! Nein nein nein nein nein!
But... cyborgs are cooler than pirates. And a cyborg pirate would be THE coolest.
Fine, have it your way. Neolutionists suck anyway, wouldn't want them back in the picture
Hmm... this show is in a world where there's been successful human cloning, so maybe it's in a world where there have been successful eye transplants as well. And Rachel has no shortage of compatible organ donors to choose from. Is it possible that Rachel could come after Sarah seeking, quite literally, an eye for an eye?
And I still don't understand your assumption that the plan would've fallen apart under different circumstances. There's no basis for assuming that. I can imagine other ways in which the plan could've played out successfully. I've already described one: More than one person is in the room but they're distracted by the shock of the weapon firing and the injury it inflicts to one of their own, giving Scott a chance to help Sarah free her other limbs, whereupon Sarah goes to town on Rachel and the others (the fire extinguisher itself could make a handy bludgeon, I suppose).
And again, there's no reason to assume that Cosima had the time or resources to come up with a better plan -- especially when she's in such poor health herself. She had to improvise in haste using the available resources and this is what she came up with.
It's generally unwise to assume you can guess what other people's reasons were for their decisions. We're often quick to assume the worst about decisions that turn out to have more well-intentioned motivations.
Tons of fiction is about contrived timing. And I think that what matters is that Cosima and Kira needed emotionally to help Sarah, even if it wasn't needed in plot terms. I agree the plot was a little awkwardly put together, but it was in service to the character beats, so that's excusable.
Once they made the choice to use a pencil, that limited the number of injuries that could've fit the parameters I described. Indeed, maybe the idea was that Cosima chose a pencil because she expected it wouldn't cause too serious an injury, but by a fluke it did worse damage than she intended.
I don't understand what's so wrong with the idea that an improvised plan was unlikely to succeed and required a great deal of luck. That's the whole point of improvised plans! Countless stories feature the heroes facing impossible odds with the flimsiest possible defense, yet somehow managing to prevail through million-to-one luck and determination. Why in the world do you find this unusual here?
There's a huge, huge difference between being capable of cunning and being capable of deliberately confronting and attacking another human being. As I said, it's not remotely as easy to do that as most fiction pretends, nor should it be. So the ability to do the one does not at all suggest the ability to do the other.
Besides, there's the simple fact that this is Sarah's show and Scott's just a supporting character.
But that's not the scenario they wanted. They wanted a one-on-one climax between Sarah and Rachel.
And I still don't understand your assumption that the plan would've fallen apart under different circumstances. There's no basis for assuming that. I can imagine other ways in which the plan could've played out successfully. I've already described one: More than one person is in the room but they're distracted by the shock of the weapon firing and the injury it inflicts to one of their own, giving Scott a chance to help Sarah free her other limbs, whereupon Sarah goes to town on Rachel and the others (the fire extinguisher itself could make a handy bludgeon, I suppose).
And again, there's no reason to assume that Cosima had the time or resources to come up with a better plan -- especially when she's in such poor health herself. She had to improvise in haste using the available resources and this is what she came up with.
It's generally unwise to assume you can guess what other people's reasons were for their decisions. We're often quick to assume the worst about decisions that turn out to have more well-intentioned motivations.
Tons of fiction is about contrived timing. And I think that what matters is that Cosima and Kira needed emotionally to help Sarah, even if it wasn't needed in plot terms. I agree the plot was a little awkwardly put together, but it was in service to the character beats, so that's excusable.
Once they made the choice to use a pencil, that limited the number of injuries that could've fit the parameters I described. Indeed, maybe the idea was that Cosima chose a pencil because she expected it wouldn't cause too serious an injury, but by a fluke it did worse damage than she intended.
I don't understand what's so wrong with the idea that an improvised plan was unlikely to succeed and required a great deal of luck. That's the whole point of improvised plans! Countless stories feature the heroes facing impossible odds with the flimsiest possible defense, yet somehow managing to prevail through million-to-one luck and determination. Why in the world do you find this unusual here?
There's a huge, huge difference between being capable of cunning and being capable of deliberately confronting and attacking another human being. As I said, it's not remotely as easy to do that as most fiction pretends, nor should it be. So the ability to do the one does not at all suggest the ability to do the other.
Besides, there's the simple fact that this is Sarah's show and Scott's just a supporting character.
But that's not the scenario they wanted. They wanted a one-on-one climax between Sarah and Rachel.
Now that's an interesting - and suitably gruesome - idea.
Something else that I've been thinking about. By destroying the vials, was Rachel also damaging her own chances of not succumbing to the disease? (Assuming that she can't get her hands on Kira that easily any more.) Is Kira's bone marrow necessary for preventing the disease or is it just needed once the serious symptoms develop and Duncan's data is enough to fix it otherwise? I'm not quite clear on that.
That is not the crux of my point. The exact number of circumstances the existing plan would have worked is not crucial. The point is that whatever that number is, I just don't believe that Cosima couldn't have come up with another better plan that would be only prone to failing under a lot smaller number of circumstances. And surely her goal was to give Sarah the best possible chance. If you think the plan from the episode was indeed the best possible plan, well then agree to disagree. Because we're starting to go in circles.
And like I said, this is purely determined by the writers, there is nothing in the preceding story strictly and precisely limiting her time or the resources to "pencil-cannon". It's not like she was locked in a room with just a fire extinguisher and pencil.
This is true.
True, it has justification. I never said it destroyed the episode for me, I just listed it as a thing I didn't particularly like. Because the emotional/character justification, even if existing, wasn't strong enough for me in this case.
At the risk of repeating myself - it's not (at least not just) that the plan worked! It's that I don't believe the characters would have chosen such a flimsy plan when they, IMO, had way better alternatives! Both in-universe and from a writer story-plausability perspective.
Well, that's my whole problem. They started with the scenario they wanted but then failed to build to it in a way that I personally would have found satisfying. It's not like the confrontation HAD to happen there. It could have just as easily happened, say, when Sarah went to get Kira after escaping and found Rachel there. Actually, I would have found such a direct confrontation over Kira, the center of the whole "battle", much more interesting and symbolic.
Maybe so, but she was so blinded by her resentment of Sarah and her desire to beat her that it blinded her to the risk she might be taking by destroying the marrow.
That is not the crux of my point. The exact number of circumstances the existing plan would have worked is not crucial. The point is that whatever that number is, I just don't believe that Cosima couldn't have come up with another better plan that would be only prone to failing under a lot smaller number of circumstances. And surely her goal was to give Sarah the best possible chance. If you think the plan from the episode was indeed the best possible plan, well then agree to disagree. Because we're starting to go in circles.
I've explicitly acknowledged that it wasn't the best possible plan, so I can't imagine why you would say this. What I said is that it's not remotely uncommon in fiction for the heroes to have a bare-bones, imperfect plan with a small chance of success, so I don't know why you find such a universal trope so objectionable in this case. Yes, theoretically, given enough time and resources, Cosima could've come up with a better plan. And yes, theoretically, the writers could've chosen to give her more time and resources. But it's not a writer's job to make things easy for the heroes.
Huh? We're not talking about the resources Cosima had in her room, but about those that she knew would be allowed in the operating theater where Sarah was. A fire extinguisher is a necessary piece of safety equipment, so presumably its presence wouldn't be taken as anomalous.
The only alternative you've offered is the smoke bomb, which sounds really lame to me. Not only would it be impractical in-story, but it's a pretty obvious and cliched idea from a storytelling perspective.
Okay, maybe. There was some awkwardness to the way it was put together. I just object to the judgmental assumption that it was done solely out of some petty desire for shock value or random brutality. I think that's a totally unfair interpretation.
i'd agree with Christopher on this.
Kosima did a McGyver,using what she had. You had to take into account, and Christopher just did, that what she used would not be considered suspicious, as opposed to a knife or smokebomb.
Also, Scott is definitely not a fighter, and I think everyone involved realized this, and didn't put him in a place where he had to fight -- just use his brains and his hands. He could have been a big liability if they tried to have him assassinate or incapacitate Rachel. And he would probably fail
As said, Sarah is a fighter, and even if it didn't work out, she would have been able to try.
Overall, I liked thefinale...it was packed, but I think it worked out for me. The one thing was the dance on my TV looked obvious green screen. But I could set that aside for the sake of what they were getting across. Since Tatiana has made her different roles believably distinct, I feel obligated to use my imagination that they are all in room at the same time.
Kosima did a McGyver,using what she had. You had to take into account, and Christopher just did, that what she used would not be considered suspicious, as opposed to a knife or smokebomb.
Also, Scott is definitely not a fighter, and I think everyone involved realized this, and didn't put him in a place where he had to fight -- just use his brains and his hands. He could have been a big liability if they tried to have him assassinate or incapacitate Rachel. And he would probably fail
As said, Sarah is a fighter, and even if it didn't work out, she would have been able to try.
Overall, I liked thefinale...it was packed, but I think it worked out for me. The one thing was the dance on my TV looked obvious green screen. But I could set that aside for the sake of what they were getting across. Since Tatiana has made her different roles believably distinct, I feel obligated to use my imagination that they are all in room at the same time.
It's funny... I watched the episode on my aunt's big-screen HDTV and I barely saw any indication of the FX seams showing in the clone dance party, but then I watched a behind-the-scenes clip of the dance party back home on my 20-inch computer monitor and the bluescreen edge around Helena's hair (I think they showed blue screens being used) was much more obvious.
Although I couldn't help noticing that there was no direct interaction between the dancers -- just Felix weaving in and out of the shot as he changed partners. So that made the artifice a little self-evident too.
But hey, they were making this on a TV schedule and budget. I think someone said above that they pushed their available shooting time to the limit and would've had to abandon the shot if it had taken any longer. Given feature-film scheduling, they would've had time to include the four Tatianas and have them touching and interacting more directly, but given their limitations, they had to make a compromise or two. So the clones danced separately, and we then got that really nice, subtle shot of Sarah and Cosima lying together in bed and holding hands.
Mainly I'm not bothered by the evident FX trickery because the effect that really mattered was seeing all four "sisters" together at last and being amazed at how completely different they all were, how well Maslany limned their characters purely through dance and body language. That was an award-worthy achievement right there.
Although I couldn't help noticing that there was no direct interaction between the dancers -- just Felix weaving in and out of the shot as he changed partners. So that made the artifice a little self-evident too.
But hey, they were making this on a TV schedule and budget. I think someone said above that they pushed their available shooting time to the limit and would've had to abandon the shot if it had taken any longer. Given feature-film scheduling, they would've had time to include the four Tatianas and have them touching and interacting more directly, but given their limitations, they had to make a compromise or two. So the clones danced separately, and we then got that really nice, subtle shot of Sarah and Cosima lying together in bed and holding hands.
Mainly I'm not bothered by the evident FX trickery because the effect that really mattered was seeing all four "sisters" together at last and being amazed at how completely different they all were, how well Maslany limned their characters purely through dance and body language. That was an award-worthy achievement right there.
I didn't have problems with them not interacting (actually I didn't have any problems with the scene itself), I was however able to spot the trickery with Helena. I think she was the only one that was the most obvious, but she does appear to be inserted into the scene after the fact...which is I imagine how they did it. I'd have to watch the episode again to see if any of the other clones look out of place, but for the most part I thought the whole scene was well done (I was trying to spot the trickery, and was only able to see the Helena stuff, so I suppose it was pretty well done ).
).
Here's the video of how they shot the scene (not really a discussion, just a replay of the scene with the image swapping between the complete image and its various components):
http://io9.com/how-orphan-black-filmed-that-big-multi-clone-scene-from-1594929437
They were all in the scene, in that all their scenes were filmed in the set of Felix's apartment, but they were filmed separately, mostly with bluescreens draped along the back walls so that their heads/bodies could be isolated. Helena was the most obviously composited because her light, frizzy hair moving so quickly made the edge effects harder to hide.
http://io9.com/how-orphan-black-filmed-that-big-multi-clone-scene-from-1594929437
They were all in the scene, in that all their scenes were filmed in the set of Felix's apartment, but they were filmed separately, mostly with bluescreens draped along the back walls so that their heads/bodies could be isolated. Helena was the most obviously composited because her light, frizzy hair moving so quickly made the edge effects harder to hide.
That's a very nice video, thanks for posting it Christopher.
I remember what stood out to be now, concerning Helena, the shadows on the ground. Everyone else is either on the other side or so far into the foreground that you can't see their shadows, but Helena was the only one that you could see her shadow, and it looked a little fake to me.
I remember what stood out to be now, concerning Helena, the shadows on the ground. Everyone else is either on the other side or so far into the foreground that you can't see their shadows, but Helena was the only one that you could see her shadow, and it looked a little fake to me.
Absolutely (I get the motivation, I'm not criticizing!) I was just wondering if the show has made explicit the exact importance of the bone marrow and Duncan's data.
OK, wrongly worded then. But you're assuming I don't find this trope annoying in other situations and shows. Some universal tropes, especially pushed after a certain point, are objectionable. Sure, McGyvering improbable stuff can be fun, but it can also easily break suspension of disbelief. There's a careful balance between creativity/surprise and believability. This broke that balance and suspension for me. It didn't for you, and others here, so that's where we can agree to disagree. You think the alternatives would have been lame and obvious, I think they would have been realistically simple and practical (as most of the solutions on this show in the past) and therefore in this case better. And I'm not saying shock value was the sole concern, but I still think it was a concern that overrode certain other objections in a way that I didn't like.
EDIT:
Hmm, are fire extinguishers usually kept immediately next to operating tables? Do patients burst into fire? (well, maybe Dyad patients)
I guess they concealed it a bit and/or no one noticed it.
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Which is odd, since, as the video clearly shows, they're all really dancing on the same floor, so her shadow on that floor would be entirely real (although its interaction with the others' shadows might look a little odd). The part that was problematical was her hair, which got a little posterized and cut off around the edges when she flung it around really quickly -- a perennial problem with matte shots.
Except you've still only suggested one alternative. You have yet to actually propose a better one. If you have one, other than the smoke bomb, it would help if you'd mention it.
And that is what I disagree with. I don't think it was just about shock value. And I'm saying this as someone who did feel that what happened with Alison and Aynsley last season was largely about shock value.
Hmm, are fire extinguishers usually kept immediately next to operating tables? Do patients burst into fire? (well, maybe Dyad patients)
https://www.ecri.org/surgical_fires
The extinguisher was on the equipment cart that was wheeled into the room. I don't see the inclusion of a piece of equipment on an equipment cart as something that hugely strains disbelief.
I have yet to propose one you would consider better. I'm already perfectly satisfied with the smoke bomb idea. One alternative that I find better is perfectly enough. But it's just the first thing that came to mind, I'm not a writer (nor am I a smart scientist).
If you insist, and at the risk of showing how unimaginative I am: If we limit the scenario to be nearly identical to what was in the episode maybe Cosima and Scott could have created some other sort of distraction, like setting off some device in the next room. Or maybe he could have slipped Sarah some taser thingy rigged by Cosima with which Sarah could have shocked Rachel once she lured her close enough. Or have it be Allison's taser so that we can include her too and then find another role for Cosima in the plan. Or an injection, as payback for Felix (have her stab Rachel in the eye, if the eye-patch is a must!
) Or a flamethrower! Or a directed harmful chemical thrower. I don't know.But it's not like Sarah even had to be strapped to a bed in an operating room. Maybe Scott could have snuck to where Sarah was being held and broke the lock or blasted open the door with something he and Cosima had made. Or somehow include Cosima pretending to be Rachel in the rescue (have we actually seen Cosima get the chance to pretend she's another clone?) Or plenty other scenarios that a more talented writer than me could probably come up with. Do I have to write the actual episode in a perfect way so that my criticism can be justified?
Ah, thanks. Now I feel very stupid for not thinking about the dangers of oxygen catching fire.
The point is, in your previous post you specifically cited "the alternatives," plural. Since you only offered one alternative, then that was a misstatement.
And I thought discussion was about trying to persuade the other party and being open to persuasion by them, not just to say "Here's what I think and I don't care what you think." I was inviting you to suggest further alternatives, because I'm willing to listen if you have ones that might convince me.
Okay, like what kind of device? What would they have had the resources to make, been able to get into that room without suspicion, and been able to trigger remotely?
I'm reminded of some Mission: Impossible episodes I've seen where the plan goes awry and the team has to improvise a strategy (or occasionally where there's no advance plan at all because they've stumbled into a crisis), and yet the gadgets they happen to have on hand to deal with it are just as perfectly, meticulously crafted for their exact needs as they are in the episodes where they had weeks of advance planning (implicitly) to get ready for a caper. I never find those particularly convincing. Improvised plans are rarely perfect.
So I think the best bet in this situation is something simple, something that doesn't require a lot of technology to create or a lot of steps to initiate. This was a very simple plan: just replace the nozzle on a fire extinguisher with a narrower barrel, hide a pencil in the barrel, and tip Sarah off to pull the lever, albeit in a subtle enough way that only she would get the message. Granted, relying on Rachel bringing Kira's drawing to Sarah at just the right moment was risky, but I think it made sense to expect that Rachel would want to taunt Sarah with the fact that she could be with Kira and Sarah couldn't. As an employee of the Dyad, Cosima may well have picked up enough office gossip to figure out that Rachel would be inclined to do that.
Well, since you do now recognize the hazards of an ignition source around oxygen equipment, I think we can skip this one and your later flamethrower suggestion.
Or an injection, as payback for Felix (have her stab Rachel in the eye, if the eye-patch is a must!
Okay, now, this is a promising suggestion. A needle is something that wouldn't seem out of place in an operating theater. But again, it wouldn't work to rely on Scott to attack Rachel. Even something as seemingly "harmless" as a needle would still be meant as an attack, and there would be mental blocks and hesitations that Scott probably wouldn't have the training to overcome easily, so there'd be a lot of risk that Rachel or someone else would notice and stop him. So Sarah has to be the one taking action, and she starts out in restraints. So the first step in the plan needs to be creating a distraction so Sarah can free her arms. The purpose of the pencil cannon was to create that distraction; it's just by chance that Rachel ended up as the target.
Also, as we've discussed, Cosima didn't know that Rachel would clear the room. She didn't know how many people Sarah would have to deal with. Sarah might be able to inject one person if she managed to slip her restraints, but not several. So I'm afraid the "give her a needle" option doesn't quite fit the situation. The priority has to be creating an initial distraction to let her slip her restraints. Try approaching the problem from that direction, rather than assuming the goal is to take out Rachel.
Would the timing have worked for that, though? There's also the security to think about. Scott got into the OR because he was able to hide his face under a surgical mask and cap. He wouldn't have been able to do that just walking through the corridors, so I doubt he could've gotten past the guards.
Given that Cosima is very ill and reliant on a breathing tube she can only remove for a few minutes at a time, this would be an extremely risky plan. Plus, where would they get a Rachel wig inside Dyad, as well as a hairstylist competent to hide Cosima's luxurious dreads under that short bob?
I can't find any references to Cosima impersonating one of her sisters, although she did briefly impersonate Delphine over the phone in episode 2.06. So this may not be something she could do as well as Sarah, who's a longtime grifter, or Alison, who's an amateur actress. We should also consider that the employees of the Dyad are probably aware of the fact that Cosima and Rachel resemble each other, so unless her accent and mannerisms were perfect, she'd probably give away that she was Cosima.
Hmm...you got me thinking...do you think Alison would want to step up her involvement, and now that she thinks she's a badass, (and a good actress) and step up and try to impersonate Rachel in a future episode? (Of course, something will go horribly wrong, and be the plot for the next episode or two).
Sorry if I made it feel that way. I got irritated because I felt, probably wrongly, that you said that the fact that my suspension of disbelief was broken is not valid enough because I only specifically provided one alternative that wasn't somehow objectively better. Yeah, I used a plural where technically I shouldn't have, but it feels too pedantic to focus on that single thing in my whole paragraph.
A bomb of some kind? I don't know how hard it is to make a bomb or something similar but Dyad surely has a fully stocked lab somewhere in that building, if their own lab wasn't sufficient. Or have Mrs S help them, she mentioned a bomb earlier in the episode anyway. Or, heck, just have Scott set off the fire alarm or another alarm manually.
The flamethrower was more of a joke. But that link said that the risk of fire in such a situation is still extremely small. So while it justifies the presence of a fire extinguisher, I don't think that this miniscule risk would have that much influence on a plan meant to save Sarah from a much much higher risk. So I don't think that the taser can be skipped.
I still think you're underestimating Scott's resolve or capability to overcome his inner blocks in order to save Sarah. But we've already been over that and I did mean for the needle to be used by Sarah when I mentioned that idea.
Scott already freed one of Sarah's arms by almost completely loosening that restraint. That's the only reason she was even able to use the pencil-launcher. It's not much of a stretch that he could have done the same thing with the other arm too. That would be plenty enough for Sarah to lure Rachel or another target right next to herself and then use the needle. (Though I see another even simpler solution. Just have Scott distract Rachel's attention in some conventional manner, long enough for Sarah to free herself and knock Rachel out)
It's not like the pencil-launcher is any more useful in that regard, it's still a blink-of-an-eye single-shot weapon that can only take out one person and the only distraction it creates is in doing that. I don't think a person falling down because of getting hit by a pencil would create much more distraction than a person falling down because of getting stabbed with a needle.
And if we're going to use those priorities, a taser - which can be used multiple times - or, again, a smoke bomb (or a noise bomb or a flash bomb) - which would have created way more distraction - seem like much better options to me.
The writers set the timing whatever way they want. And Scott could have pretended that he was going to conduct some sort of medical examination on Sarah. And then we can also have Cosima give the clearance to the guards on the phone pretending like she was Rachel. You said she already impersonated Delphine and her Leekie was spot-on so she's not incapable when it comes to voice-acting. (Though I don't much like this solution, since it's already been done on the show - but I still find it more believable.) Or - just have Scott use the card he stole. It seems silly to complain about security in this scenario when it obviously presented no problem in the episode itself.
And since we've now really gone hugely into detail, I feel like I have to make clear that I don't really care that much about the exact specifics of the mechanics of the plan (neither is it even my main criticism anymore, actually). I just care that it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. It's not always a purely logical thing, it's a feeling.
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