I had a question concerning the waistcoat. What's the uniform reason for having it? We see it both under the regular uniform and without the over-jacket in the First Contact and after era, but I'm going through Navy uniforms (not an entirely 1 for 1 comparison, I know), and can't find an equivalent.
Officer's Waistcoat
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Re: Officer Waistcoat
Ran him out of town like a common pygmy...
Yes, it seems a carryover from naval tradition.
I had a Detective Lieutenant Frank Drebin moment on reading the thread title, trying to remember who Officer Waistcoat was.
Ran him out of town like a common pygmy...
Re: Officer Waistcoat
'Traditional' British Navy Officers had waistcoats as part of their uniforms, so it could be tying into that whole vibe. I can't see a practical purpose for it in terms of the FC ensemble, aside perhaps from it simply being something of an 'alternative' uniform variant that starship captains are allowed to pick and choose (see also Kirk's green wraparound tunic in TOS or Picard's "captain's jacket" in TNG). AFAIK we only ever seen Picard and Sisko wear it on-screen, right? So it must definitely be a captain thing.
'Traditional' British Navy Officers had waistcoats as part of their uniforms, so it could be tying into that whole vibe. I can't see a practical purpose for it in terms of the FC ensemble, aside perhaps from it simply being something of an 'alternative' uniform variant that starship captains are allowed to pick and choose (see also Kirk's green wraparound tunic in TOS or Picard's "captain's jacket" in TNG). AFAIK we only ever seen Picard and Sisko wear it on-screen, right? So it must definitely be a captain thing.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
I could buy it as a uniform variant if it wasn't for the fact that Sisko was at least twice seen wearing it under his jacket. Once was in In the Pale Moonlight, once in an episode where he and crew were doing some farm work (I forget the name of that one).
Where waistcoats are worn as part of a uniform historically (or even present day) it is usally with an open jacket. The FC Uniforms do not share this feature.
I could buy it as a uniform variant if it wasn't for the fact that Sisko was at least twice seen wearing it under his jacket. Once was in In the Pale Moonlight, once in an episode where he and crew were doing some farm work (I forget the name of that one).
Where waistcoats are worn as part of a uniform historically (or even present day) it is usally with an open jacket. The FC Uniforms do not share this feature.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
US Navy officer/chief service blue uniforms had optional vests for many years, but not many people knew about; you couldn't see them if they were worn because the coat was always worn buttoned up. The main advantage was warmth when service blues were still worn as a duty uniform at sea. I'm not sure when they disappeared from the uniform regulations, but they were still around in the '70s. This is from the Navy's "All Hands" magazine, July 1975:
US Navy officer/chief service blue uniforms had optional vests for many years, but not many people knew about; you couldn't see them if they were worn because the coat was always worn buttoned up. The main advantage was warmth when service blues were still worn as a duty uniform at sea. I'm not sure when they disappeared from the uniform regulations, but they were still around in the '70s. This is from the Navy's "All Hands" magazine, July 1975:
Re: Officer Waistcoat
...Now, Garak did keep complaining about how cold it is on the station in "The Wire".
But supposedly that is because the temperature has been cranked down to human levels of comfort, not because the station would be cold in absolute terms. Although one could argue that the place is designed as a constantly running refinery that is supposed to put out a lot of heat, and our heroes who instead run the place as a lazy warehouse thus prefer the warmest clothing allowable by the regulations.
Doesn't explain Kira's preference for that thin white top. Although perhaps Bajorans are different. Or then she just wanted the chill factor boost for certain parts of her anatomy?
Timo Saloniemi
...Now, Garak did keep complaining about how cold it is on the station in "The Wire".
But supposedly that is because the temperature has been cranked down to human levels of comfort, not because the station would be cold in absolute terms. Although one could argue that the place is designed as a constantly running refinery that is supposed to put out a lot of heat, and our heroes who instead run the place as a lazy warehouse thus prefer the warmest clothing allowable by the regulations.
Doesn't explain Kira's preference for that thin white top. Although perhaps Bajorans are different. Or then she just wanted the chill factor boost for certain parts of her anatomy?
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Officer Waistcoat
Thanks J.T.B, always happy to be corrected! It does rather reinforce the fact that extra layers were there to provide extra warmth though, something that should be unneccessary on a climate controlled starship.
This scene (from this page) shows just how much quilting there is when all three layers are combined though. Not to mention the under-vest which Picard sports in FC as well.
TOASTY!!!
Thanks J.T.B, always happy to be corrected! It does rather reinforce the fact that extra layers were there to provide extra warmth though, something that should be unneccessary on a climate controlled starship.
This scene (from this page) shows just how much quilting there is when all three layers are combined though. Not to mention the under-vest which Picard sports in FC as well.
TOASTY!!!
Re: Officer Waistcoat
Not really a correction since you said "usually," but I thought it might be of interest as a little-known feature.
Yeah, whatever the idea was behind that combination, I suspect it was not too popular with actors.
Not really a correction since you said "usually," but I thought it might be of interest as a little-known feature.
Yeah, whatever the idea was behind that combination, I suspect it was not too popular with actors.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
I figured Picard had it in Star Trek: First Contact because if ya watch the movie, ya may notice that as it progresses, Patrick Stewart has less & less of his costume on. Of course, it can signify that the ship was gettin' hotter or more humid because of the Borg infiltration, and it also provided an extra step between uniform jacket & turtleneck.
And Sisko had it in 'Rapture' because Picard had it in FC, and they showed it again in 'In the Pale Moonlight'. Both times he was off duty, and workin' through his own issues.
I figured Picard had it in Star Trek: First Contact because if ya watch the movie, ya may notice that as it progresses, Patrick Stewart has less & less of his costume on. Of course, it can signify that the ship was gettin' hotter or more humid because of the Borg infiltration, and it also provided an extra step between uniform jacket & turtleneck.
And Sisko had it in 'Rapture' because Picard had it in FC, and they showed it again in 'In the Pale Moonlight'. Both times he was off duty, and workin' through his own issues.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
Pretty much confirmed in dialogue (tho it's a bit incongruous that Picard is the ONLY one who starts stripping down because of the heat).
I suspect the actors shouldn't ever have been made to actually feel too uncomfortable because the only versions of the uniforms which should have had all the layers should've been for scenes where where the actor actually takes all of those layers off. The majority of the scenes probably had simplified costumes, where the turtleneck is simply sewn into the collar etc, ones which looks fine for the cameras but aren't a 'practical' version of the costume (in my experience in acting this is common practice, very seldom are costumes quite as elaborate as they actually appear to the audience).
Of course, I don't know about the Star Trek costumes. Blackman and his team might have actually made them to be just as elaborate as they appear to be.
Pretty much confirmed in dialogue (tho it's a bit incongruous that Picard is the ONLY one who starts stripping down because of the heat).
I suspect the actors shouldn't ever have been made to actually feel too uncomfortable because the only versions of the uniforms which should have had all the layers should've been for scenes where where the actor actually takes all of those layers off. The majority of the scenes probably had simplified costumes, where the turtleneck is simply sewn into the collar etc, ones which looks fine for the cameras but aren't a 'practical' version of the costume (in my experience in acting this is common practice, very seldom are costumes quite as elaborate as they actually appear to the audience).
Of course, I don't know about the Star Trek costumes. Blackman and his team might have actually made them to be just as elaborate as they appear to be.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
Edited to Add:
She put everything she could into the Intendant costume, though its design is the same as the standard Bajoran uniform, just different fabric.
I never liked that outfit, I don't really think it's flattering on people. Maybe it reminds me of bib overalls or something. If they were trying to come up with something sexy for Kira, they just should have put her in a leotard. Nana had a dancer's body, and they could have emphasized that.
Edited to Add:
She put everything she could into the Intendant costume, though its design is the same as the standard Bajoran uniform, just different fabric.
Last edited:
Re: Officer Waistcoat
That's the kind of stuff I was wondering! Now it's more understandable, moreso Kirk's than Picard's, oddly enough.
I'm not up on the history of US Naval Uniforms and all their components, unfortunately, but minutiae like this are helpful. The only other bit I've been wondering, navy-wise, is when the garrison dixie-cap became regular use, over the combo cap. I kind of liked officers in ST:09 wearing those covers outside at the Academy and in formal situations. It made it feel more real, like a real service branch.
US Navy officer/chief service blue uniforms had optional vests for many years, but not many people knew about; you couldn't see them if they were worn because the coat was always worn buttoned up. The main advantage was warmth when service blues were still worn as a duty uniform at sea. I'm not sure when they disappeared from the uniform regulations, but they were still around in the '70s. This is from the Navy's "All Hands" magazine, July 1975:
That's the kind of stuff I was wondering! Now it's more understandable, moreso Kirk's than Picard's, oddly enough.
I'm not up on the history of US Naval Uniforms and all their components, unfortunately, but minutiae like this are helpful. The only other bit I've been wondering, navy-wise, is when the garrison dixie-cap became regular use, over the combo cap. I kind of liked officers in ST:09 wearing those covers outside at the Academy and in formal situations. It made it feel more real, like a real service branch.
Re: Officer Waistcoat
I'm not sure which one you mean. The "dixie cup" is the enlisted sailor's white canvas hat, which goes back to the late 1800s. The garrison cap is the one that folds flat kind of like an envelope. They have been around since WW2: 1941 for aviators and 1943 for everyone else. In WW2 there were colors of garrison cap for every uniform: blue (black), khaki, green, gray and (rarely used) white. Now there are only khaki and blue.
Yeah, as a bald guy I've especially noticed the scarcity of headgear in earlier Trek!
I'm not sure which one you mean. The "dixie cup" is the enlisted sailor's white canvas hat, which goes back to the late 1800s. The garrison cap is the one that folds flat kind of like an envelope. They have been around since WW2: 1941 for aviators and 1943 for everyone else. In WW2 there were colors of garrison cap for every uniform: blue (black), khaki, green, gray and (rarely used) white. Now there are only khaki and blue.
Yeah, as a bald guy I've especially noticed the scarcity of headgear in earlier Trek!
Re: Officer Waistcoat
I got 'em confused. I was reading a combined article talking about sailors customizing their caps for individuality after doing a search for the fold-flat garrison cap, and it turns out they were talking about the enlisted white cap. I blame lack of sleep!
I guess lack of headgear was to make it futuristic?
I'm working through a series of uniform options for each of the categories that the Navy uses now, making essentially Starfleet counterparts to each (PT, coveralls, NWU, Service, Service Dress, Dinner Dress, Ceremonial), and would like to have them use headgear too. (off-topic to this original post, I know).
I got 'em confused. I was reading a combined article talking about sailors customizing their caps for individuality after doing a search for the fold-flat garrison cap, and it turns out they were talking about the enlisted white cap. I blame lack of sleep!
I guess lack of headgear was to make it futuristic?
I'm working through a series of uniform options for each of the categories that the Navy uses now, making essentially Starfleet counterparts to each (PT, coveralls, NWU, Service, Service Dress, Dinner Dress, Ceremonial), and would like to have them use headgear too. (off-topic to this original post, I know).
Re: Officer Waistcoat
Hats also have the major real-world downside of ruining one's heroic hairdo, so there'd have to be extra effort by the hair stylist in every scene involving removing of hats - and the result would be unrealistic by default.
A less pressing concern would be the diminishing ability of the audience to tell characters apart if their heads were even partially covered by pieces of clothing. (The heads of the characters, I mean, but the other way around would also present its share of problems.) Space helmets are an issue Trek managed to avoid for a long time... And those mesh visors instead of glass or plexiglass ones were a clever idea!
Timo Saloniemi
Try "cheap". Although I gather hats make lighting of faces difficult. And this goes double for practical headgear, the very function of which often is to alter the amount of light falling on one's face!
Hats also have the major real-world downside of ruining one's heroic hairdo, so there'd have to be extra effort by the hair stylist in every scene involving removing of hats - and the result would be unrealistic by default.
A less pressing concern would be the diminishing ability of the audience to tell characters apart if their heads were even partially covered by pieces of clothing. (The heads of the characters, I mean, but the other way around would also present its share of problems.) Space helmets are an issue Trek managed to avoid for a long time... And those mesh visors instead of glass or plexiglass ones were a clever idea!
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Officer Waistcoat
No one's going to dress-down the captain for shedding bits of his uniform but imagine the bollocking the security extras would get from Riker if they had fought the Borg in anything less than full-dress.
No one's going to dress-down the captain for shedding bits of his uniform but imagine the bollocking the security extras would get from Riker if they had fought the Borg in anything less than full-dress.
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