Anyone receive "These Are The Voyages..." Season 2 yet?

[cbspock]

Also another point brought out in the book is that NBC wasn't totally clueless about what made the show work. Robertson pushed the production every chance he got. He also called out some of their weaker ideas.

Some of the stories or elements of the stories they couldn't pull off because of budgets makes you wonder what could have been if they just had a little more money.

I also think that the effects teams and sound guys don't get a lot of credit today for what they pulled off back in the day pre-Star Wars effects revolution. The model was a pain in the tail to work with, etc.

-Chris

 

[davejames]

Yeah it's kind of hilarious how happy Robertson would become every time there was a story that got the characters off the Enterprise and onto a planet somewhere. Even though we see now that such a thing was no guarantee of a better or more exciting story, and that oftentimes the ship-bound stories were the best ones.

 

[cbspock]

Yeah it's kind of hilarious how happy Robertson would become every time there was a story that got the characters off the Enterprise and onto a planet somewhere. Even though we see now that such a thing was no guarantee of a better or more exciting story, and that oftentimes the ship-bound stories were the best ones.

He was so into not starting an episode on the Enterprise as well..lol


I'm not up to the Coon Roddenberry blow out yet, but Piece of the Action and Tribbles are two of my favorite episodes. It also gave us The Voyage Home as well which was told in the tradition of those two episodes.


As to re-using ideas, I don't think that falls on Coon alone, Roddenberry was big into re-using stuff as well. I was just reading the Mirror Mirror chapter and Robertson noted...

the series premise was action-adventure first, philosophical second.

He was basically throwing Gene's own series description in his face.

I think this is where fans get what Star Trek is confused. The show didn't always deal with social commentary first, it was an action adventure show with some philosophy sprinkled on top if at all.


-Chris

 

[CrazyMatt]

Yeah it's kind of hilarious how happy Robertson would become every time there was a story that got the characters off the Enterprise and onto a planet somewhere. Even though we see now that such a thing was no guarantee of a better or more exciting story, and that oftentimes the ship-bound stories were the best ones.

Part of Stan Robertson's job was to ensure that NBC got what it paid for, an action-adventure series with a sci-fi storyline. The series had been advertised with the Enterprise's mission being "to explore strange new worlds," so that's exactly what he expected to see.

That said, yes the bottle shows were often very good, but that wasn't what NBC wanted to see... once in a while was OK, but Robertson was sure to object if they plumbed that well too often for his tastes.

 

[Warped9]

And yet the conditions imposed upon them made that increasingly difficult. The ever shrinking budget made it difficult to make and dress new sets, have more than a couple of guest actors and use more than a few special f/x. No wonder a lot of previous footage was reused when possible. The shorter shooting schedule was also constrictive to directors, actors and everyone else.

Paramount taking over, instead of facilitating things for them, only made everything they already struggled with even worse. That and the fact that NBC, despite Robertson's input, exhiled them to a shitty time slot and did little to nothing anymore to promote the show.

No wonder Coon, Pevney and Solow bailed. They had simply had enough.

Star Trek was, and remains, a fantastic concept for a series, but they were trying to produce a first class or even acceptable science fiction adventure at a time and within a system that was against allowing it to happen. One could argue that's still true today.

Reading the development of quite a few of the second season episodes it seems apparent to me that some of them were produced out of necessity what with NBC holding off until the last minute to tell them they were picked up for the final eight episodes of the season. That and the constraints imposed by Paramount made creativity, execution and polish almost a complete matter of wishful thinking. To their credit Roddenberry, Fontana and Justman and the rest still strived for a respectable product even as conditions pressured them to be more conventional and commercial. Two standout episodes in particular, "A Piece Of The Action" and "Patterns Of Force," would probably have never seen the light of day under better conditions. They just went too far to the absurd and took the parallel Earth idea too literally. There are some smirks and genuine ideas in them, but no subtlety or cleverness whatsoever.

 

[trevanian]

Anything about Lucas' departure, or do you think that will be in the year 3 volume?

 

[feek61]

I have been impressed with DC Fontana's comments on the submitted story outlines. It's well know about her involvement with her scripts but her story observations and comments on stories submitted by other writers often match Justmans in their knife edge sharp candor.

 

[cbspock]

Yeah it's kind of hilarious how happy Robertson would become every time there was a story that got the characters off the Enterprise and onto a planet somewhere. Even though we see now that such a thing was no guarantee of a better or more exciting story, and that oftentimes the ship-bound stories were the best ones.

Part of Stan Robertson's job was to ensure that NBC got what it paid for, an action-adventure series with a sci-fi storyline. The series had been advertised with the Enterprise's mission being "to explore strange new worlds," so that's exactly what he expected to see.

That said, yes the bottle shows were often very good, but that wasn't what NBC wanted to see... once in a while was OK, but Robertson was sure to object if they plumbed that well too often for his tastes.

it would definitely squeeze the production budget. I am nearing the middle of season 2 and it just seems odd with the series constantly going over budget that no one from the network or the studio tried to figure out a better way (if there was one) to manage the cost, or just bump up the budget.

It's also interesting to see just how much the network was involved. They had to see every script. I wonder if they do that today?


-Chris

 

[cbspock]

And yet the conditions imposed upon them made that increasingly difficult. The ever shrinking budget made it difficult to make and dress new sets, have more than a couple of guest actors and use more than a few special f/x. No wonder a lot of previous footage was reused when possible. The shorter shooting schedule was also constrictive to directors, actors and everyone else.

Paramount taking over, instead of facilitating things for them, only made everything they already struggled with even worse. That and the fact that NBC, despite Robertson's input, exhiled them to a shitty time slot and did little to nothing anymore to promote the show.

No wonder Coon, Pevney and Solow bailed. They had simply had enough.

Star Trek was, and remains, a fantastic concept for a series, but they were trying to produce a first class or even acceptable science fiction adventure at a time and within a system that was against allowing it to happen. One could argue that's still true today.
.

It was amazing given the circumstances what they were able to pull off. It was interesting to read that Trek was one of the first series to manage effects houses sort of the way a movie production today would. The sound team was just as innovative as Benn Burtt would be on Star Wars. The bridge along was up to 25 various tracks of sound. It was fun to learn that the sound of the aliens in Operation Annihilate was the sound of a kiss.

Even with the innovations in special effects brought about by Star Wars, Star Trek TNG was also pushing the bounds for TV. On the original series they had none of those tools. Models could only be lit for a certain amount of time, dolly movements were all manual, etc.

-Chris

 

[Warped9]

Anything about Lucas' departure, or do you think that will be in the year 3 volume?

I'm just about to read about the making of "Assignment: Earth." There aren't really any details about Lucas other than saying his tenure as producer ends with the end of second season, but that he'll return as a writer and director in the third season.

Reading about "The Omega Glory" was interesting. From the beginning it was such a divisive episode. On the one hand it had things the network expected and wanted: a planet story, saving costs with existing sets, props, etc. by doing a parallel world type story. There are good performances and good action pieces in it. But like a few others some are the parallels are too close and strain credibility. That one bit with the American flag is polarizing, too much so for some. A lot of people take the ending of the story as blatant flag waving when apparently Roddenberry wanted people to see it as about the words themselves and their meaning. He wanted it to say people should remember what they stand for and that if you forget you can actually act against what you're supposed to stand for.

 

[cbspock]

Anything about Lucas' departure, or do you think that will be in the year 3 volume?

I'm just about to read about the making of "Assignment: Earth." There aren't really any details about Lucas other than saying his tenure as producer ends with the end of second season, but that he'll return as a writer and director in the third season.

Reading about "The Omega Glory" was interesting. From the beginning it was such a divisive episode. On the one hand it had things the network expected and wanted: a planet story, saving costs with existing sets, props, etc. by doing a parallel world type story. There are good performances and good action pieces in it. But like a few others some are the parallels are too close and strain credibility. That one bit with the American flag is polarizing, too much so for some. A lot of people take the ending of the story as blatant flag waving when apparently Roddenberry wanted people to see it as about the words themselves and their meaning. He wanted it to say people should remember what they stand for and that if you forget you can actually act against what you're supposed to stand for.

I like the Omega Glory, I like the message at the end. They should have changed the symbols like the flags, yankees, and communists, so it wasn't so blatant. It was too parallel earth. It wasn't a subtle message sort of what they did on Let This Be Your Last Battlefield, it was just really obvious what they were doing.



-Chris

 

[CrazyMatt]

I have been impressed with DC Fontana's comments on the submitted story outlines. It's well know about her involvement with her scripts but her story observations and comments on stories submitted by other writers often match Justmans in their knife edge sharp candor.

Justman went as far to say the first story outline of "The Planet Eater" (eventually "The Doomsday Machine") would make "a swell 7:30 show."

Of course, the show he was disparagingly referring to was "Lost In Space," which the Star Trek production team absolutely loathed.

 

[JoeD80]

Anything about Lucas' departure, or do you think that will be in the year 3 volume?

In Justman/Solow's book, Justman says he didn't understand why Lucas wasn't invited back as producer but Roddenberry never told him the reason.

It's also interesting to see just how much the network was involved. They had to see every script. I wonder if they do that today?

Yes. The same system of network liaison is still used.

 

[Warped9]

They were also scrambling for scripts at the end of second season. A lot of them didn't know if they'd be back for another season and maybe Roddenberry might have thought it was his last chance to get this story done. If they had been more assured of their status then maybe things would have been done differently.

Reading this blow-by-blow I can see that NBC and Robertson were into the show at the beginning, but during second season the network wasn't really supportive anymore. Were they really that pissed with GR they were willing to strangle a good show?

We also see that Star Trek, in some respects, needed to be done by an independent studio like Desilu where the creative freedom could blossom, although a bit more budget would have been appreciated. But when Paramount took over the corporate mindset was anathema to what TOS was trying to do.

Nearing the end of this book I can only say that I'm looking forward to the third volume. This certainly might not be the greatest work, but I do find it informative and enjoyable.

On the ratings issue Cushman is showing the difficulty the show was having in second season. He points out that CBS and ABC were promoting their programs on Friday evenings while NBC did nothing. So despite Robertson still doing his part the network itself was becoming a villain to the series. Roddenberry's anti-network stance from the beginning was proving self-prohetic because after the first season they weren't there for the show anymore.

In a weird way reading this is like watching the Titanic heading for inevitable disaster.

 

[davejames]

Of course, the show he was disparagingly referring to was "Lost In Space," which the Star Trek production team absolutely loathed.

I can definitely understand why. Here they were struggling day in and day out to make their stories as strong as possible, with numerous drafts and rewrites and long memos agonizing over every possible detail and line of dialogue.... while the Lost in Space team basically just had pirates and silly aliens chasing Wil and Dr Smith around on a planet every episode.... and then got pretty much the same ratings for it! Lol

In fact most shows of the time were pretty simple and formulaic compared to Trek, come to think of it. Which is probably why many of the guest stars remark about how delighted they were to work on it. Even if they had never seen the show before, they recognized immediately that the roles they were given were a lot more interesting and challenging than the norm for TV.

 

[cbspock]

They were also scrambling for scripts at the end of second season. A lot of them didn't know if they'd be back for another season and maybe Roddenberry might have thought it was his last chance to get this story done. If they had been more assured of their status then maybe things would have been done differently.

Reading this blow-by-blow I can see that NBC and Robertson were into the show at the beginning, but during second season the network wasn't really supportive anymore. Were they really that pissed with GR they were willing to strangle a good show?

We also see that Star Trek, in some respects, needed to be done by an independent studio like Desilu where the creative freedom could blossom, although a bit more budget would have been appreciated. But when Paramount took over the corporate mindset was anathema to what TOS was trying to do.

Nearing the end of this book I can only say that I'm looking forward to the third volume. This certainly might not be the greatest work, but I do find it informative and enjoyable.

On the ratings issue Cushman is showing the difficulty the show was having in second season. He points out that CBS and ABC were promoting their programs on Friday evenings while NBC did nothing. So despite Robertson still doing his part the network itself was becoming a villain to the series. Roddenberry's anti-network stance from the beginning was proving self-prohetic because after the first season they weren't there for the show anymore.

In a weird way reading this is like watching the Titanic heading for inevitable disaster.

Great points. I can see why the network was fed up with Gene, just look at Paramount after Star Trek The Motion Picture, they just wanted him gone. Look how TNG struggled in the beginning because Gene believed his own BS.

I really hope Cushman continues this book series beyond the 3rd season. I would love this type of book for the movies, especiallyfor the time period between the end of the series and Star Trek the motion picture.


-Chris

 

[cbspock]

Of course, the show he was disparagingly referring to was "Lost In Space," which the Star Trek production team absolutely loathed.

I can definitely understand why. Here they were struggling day in and day out to make their stories as strong as possible, with numerous drafts and rewrites and long memos agonizing over every possible detail and line of dialogue.... while the Lost in Space team basically just had pirates and silly aliens chasing Wil and Dr Smith around on a planet every episode.... and then got pretty much the same ratings for it! Lol

In fact most shows of the time were pretty simple and formulaic compared to Trek, come to think of it. Which is probably why many of the guest stars remark about how delighted they were to work on it. Even if they had never seen the show before, they recognized immediately that the roles they were given were a lot more interesting and challenging than the norm for TV.

and look at which one we are still talking about Star Wars fans don't even realize John Williams wrote the theme to Lost in Space. He also happened to be on the short list to score The Cage.

It is interesting to read guest star reactions in the book. A lot comment on the writing of the show, and also that they are still recognized for their work on this series compared to their other work.


-Chris

 

[Warped9]

I've just finished the book closing with the second Save Star Trek campaign. Cushman acknowledges the descrepencies in how many letters NBC may have eventually received. Regardless of the final number the campaign evidently made enough of an impression to encourage NBC to change its mind and continue for another season. That said Cushman does allude that the seeds for the show's eventual demise were already being sown.

It's ironic, really. TOS got soft ratings in second season because of its bad timeslot, something everyone knew was likely to happen. And yet those very ratings could be used as a justification (for eventual cancellation) against the show. It didn't matter that the series usually came in second against a program with unquestionable broader general audience appeal. And it was always NBC's best show for the evening. But exhiling the show to a graveyard, not promoting it and then being disappointed with less-than-stellar ratings strikes me as utter hypocrisy. Even talk of moving the series to a better timeslot could be countered with arguing that NBC's Friday programming would be a wasteland without TOS. The show had been royally fucked over.

It's interesting to note that some affiliates and other markets (like Canada) got better number because they aired the show earlier in the week, something NBC seemed happy to overlook.

One can rightfully criticize Gene Roddenberry's behaviour and some of his actions, but the guy wasn't all bad and at heart his series idea was a worthy one.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

One can rightfully criticize Gene Roddenberry's behaviour and some of his actions, but the guy wasn't all bad and at heart his series idea was a worthy one.

The same can be said for George Lucas. Both men were(or are, in regards to Lucas) 'idea' men. They came up with interesting ideas, but needed other people to execute those ideas properly.

 

[cbspock]

One can rightfully criticize Gene Roddenberry's behaviour and some of his actions, but the guy wasn't all bad and at heart his series idea was a worthy one.

The same can be said for George Lucas. Both men were(or are, in regards to Lucas) 'idea' men. They came up with interesting ideas, but needed other people to execute those ideas properly.

They worked best when they had other people around them to say no or here is a better idea. Lucas sucks as a director as we have seen with the prequels. He is an excellent editor and story guy. Gene happened to but a great team together for Star Trek from the start. He was just a bull in a china shop when it came to dealing with "the system".

It is going to be interesting to see what happens to Star Wars now that it is part of the system. It is now where Star Trek was in the 80s. Disney is going to light that franchise up like Spock flying the Galileo 7.


Star Trek needs to get back on TV. CBS has already let Star Wars walk in Trek's territory with The Clone Wars series and now REBELS. I did hear on one of TREK.FM podcasts that Paramount actually pays CBS not to do a series. That has to stop!


-Chris