How desperate are you for a new Trek TV series?

[BillJ]

TOS Uhura was a respected, respectful officer. NuUhura is a whiny shrew.

Uhura was an open book because we saw so very little of her in TOS, plus that version of the character was nearly a decade older than the Abramsverse version.

So whose to say that the two versions of the character really conflict with each other?

Seems you're speaking from personal feelings more than anything we've seen on-screen.

 

[Warped9]

Just because one version of reboot doesn't work for you doesn't mean no version of reboot won't ever work for you.

WNMHGB, TOS, TAS, TMP, TWOK-TUC, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, ST09.

Strictly speaking each one was a reboot after NBC declined to accept Star Trek as initially depicted in "The Cage." And it's still debated about how all of that fits together. Some people accept them all as a whole while others only accept it in parts.

James Bond, Superman, Batman, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes and many others have all been rebooted in varying degrees. The essential elements in all have been perpetuated without being slavishly tied to the details of what came before.

There is no reason it couldn't be done with Trek.

Yes, we can understand the trepidation, the fear, that fans can have over any reimagining of their favourite characters and universe and all tied to it. Believe me, I get that. But we can't be blinded to the fact those things we like can and mostly will be reinterpreted eventually.

When we like something we can develop an emotional possession of it. We take it to heart and heavan help anyone who messes with it. We take it personally. But that doesn't preclude others from also understanding how we feel and can also create something new that can still perpetuate those things we love.

 

[Timewalker]

But even if you believe the characterizations are wrong, the movies come with a built-in explanation - that they led slightly (or less slightly, in some cases) different lives as a result of temporal tampering. Like the mirror universe, or Tom Riker, or Picard and Shinzon, it's the same people under different circumstances.

So you're saying it's fine for nuStarfleet to have officers who act like sitcom characters and toss off one-liners instead of actually behaving like professionals?

^ Though the estimable K-DIDdy is technically correct, the other question that will tend to follow from changing, ignoring, rebooting or re-jigging continuity is: is it an improvement? Or if it's doing something entirely new, does the new thing it's doing make sense?

So, the NuTrek characters* are deliberately non-professional: presumably not because Abrams can't direct military professional characters (he can), but because it was felt they'd be relatable to the modern audience this way.

One of the reasons I've always maintained for not liking the Abrams movies is that they're dumbed down - purposely. It's really annoying that it was thought that the audience wouldn't be able to relate to dignified, professional starship officers instead of a bunch of smart-alecky frat boys and their girlfriends.

TOS Uhura was a respected, respectful officer. NuUhura is a whiny shrew.

Uhura was an open book because we saw so very little of her in TOS, plus that version of the character was nearly a decade older than the Abramsverse version.

So whose to say that the two versions of the character really conflict with each other?

Seems you're speaking from personal feelings more than anything we've seen on-screen.

Seems you're trying to pat me on the head in a condescending way about this - again.

Show me ANYWHERE in the TOS episodes where Uhura got pissy and bitchy with Spock, and basically told Kirk to shut up while she continued being pissy and bitchy. That kind of behavior doesn't belong in any professional setting, no matter what the age is of the people working there.

 

[BillJ]

Uhura was an open book because we saw so very little of her in TOS, plus that version of the character was nearly a decade older than the Abramsverse version.

So whose to say that the two versions of the character really conflict with each other?

Seems you're speaking from personal feelings more than anything we've seen on-screen.

Seems you're trying to pat me on the head in a condescending way about this - again.

Show me ANYWHERE in the TOS episodes where Uhura got pissy and bitchy with Spock, and basically told Kirk to shut up while she continued being pissy and bitchy. That kind of behavior doesn't belong in any professional setting, no matter what the age is of the people working there.

Sorry if you find me expressing my opinion in an adult manner condescending.

Go watch "The Man Trap". Bitchy with Spock and totally out of line when he acts so coldly over the transporter reporting someone was dead.

Honestly, I'll take the Uhura that has some attitude over the Uhura who needs a pep talk to follow orders and expresses that she's frightened any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Early Uhura and the Abramsverse version had quite a bit in common.

 

[Timewalker]

Uhura's line "Captain, I'm frightened." was uttered a grand total of twice: in "City on the Edge of Forever" and in "Mirror, Mirror." Both times I wanted to slap her. Yes, that was unprofessional. But at least it wasn't clingy, weepy, or ridiculous like a sitcom.

I would prefer you not dismiss my interpretations of the two versions of Uhura/nuUhura as "personal." We both know I'm not the only person on this forum who dislikes how the characters were done in the Abrams movies, and I'd prefer not to get into another round of interpersonal arguing here.

 

[BigJake]

Go watch "The Man Trap". Bitchy with Spock and totally out of line when he acts so coldly over the transporter reporting someone was dead.

Continuity Tailgunning Room to Bridge, Captain. Reporting a clean miss on our last spread, target unaffected.

You will note that the first part of the scene BillJ mentions is light banter:

Spoiler: The Man Trap

SPOCK: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequencies column.
UHURA: Mister Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more, I'll cry.
SPOCK: Cry?
UHURA: I was just trying to start a conversation.
SPOCK: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
UHURA: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady, or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
SPOCK: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
UHURA: I'm not surprised, Mister Spock.

And in the second part, where Uhura expresses actual irritation with him:

Spoiler: The Man Trap

CREWMAN [OC]: Transporter room to Bridge. Landing party returning. They report one death.
SPOCK: Bridge acknowledging.
UHURA: I don't believe it.
SPOCK: Explain.
UHURA: You explain. That means that somebody is dead and you just sit there. It could be Captain Kirk. He's the closest thing you have to a friend.
SPOCK: Lieutenant, my demonstration of concern will not change what happened. The transporter room is very well-manned and they will call if they need my assistance.

... note that this is mission-related. She's expressing irritation over his apparent disinterest in who might have been killed in the course of the current mission. People not understanding Spock's logical detachment, and believing it signified unconcern for others and a lack of concern about whether they lived or died, is a common theme and was one of the key features of the Vulcan Logic trope.

Is this comparable to Uhura piping up to complain in the midst of a commando mission about Spock failing to consider her feelings about him doing his job in a prior, unrelated mission some unspecified span of time previous? For pettiness, lack of perspective and sheer unprofessionalism I vote a solid no. Not comparable.

Standing by to resume fire on your mark.

 

[Warped9]

People often come back to this, but I find it groundless. Uhura admitting to fear is not the same as being paralyzed by fear. And Uhura has never been paralyzed by fear. Any intelligent person knows fear, but their measure is being able to go forward in spite of that fear. Even Kirk has admitted to fear (re: "Miri") and he's never been called on it. Kirk can even be seen as agitated as the Constellation is barreling into the maw of the doomsday machine and yet he doesn't lose it. McCoy is obviously frightened in TFF after seeing this entity strike down his friends and yet he doesn't lose it either.

It's a silly criticism of Uhura.

 

[BillJ]

Continuity Tailgunning Room to Bridge, Captain. Reporting a clean miss on our last spread, target unaffected.

Wait a minute? Someone compares one version of the character to another version of the character and we're not suppose to compare actions each undertake? That's non-sense.

Plus, it might be time to retire the "continuity tailgunning". Star Trek is nothing but continuity tailgunning, it's part of having a long, uninterrupted universe.

 

[BillJ]

People often come back to this, but I find it groundless. Uhura admitting to fear is not the same as being paralyzed by fear. And Uhura has never been paralyzed by fear. Any intelligent person knows fear, but their measure is being able to go forward in spite of that fear. Even Kirk has admitted to fear (re: "Miri") and he's never been called on it. Kirk can even be seen as agitated as the Constellation is barreling into the maw of the doomsday machine and yet he doesn't lose it. McCoy is obviously frightened in TFF after seeing this entity strike down his friends and yet he doesn't lose it either.

It's a silly criticism of Uhura.

It's not a silly criticism when her fear paralyzes her to the point that she has to get a pep talk from the captain to follow her orders. Especially when none of the men in the group need the same pep talk, it makes the character look weak.

 

[BigJake]

Someone compares one version of the character to another version of the character and we're not suppose to compare actions each undertake?

Compare away. Just be prepared for the possibility that your comparison may not be accurate. As in this case, and as is so often the case when people try to claim "Trek always did [such-and-such]" while defending something in AbramsTrek that Trek did not always do.

Plus, it might be time to retire the "continuity tailgunning".

I'm holding out for people to retire the practice first.

 

[BillJ]

I'm holding out for people to retire the practice first.

You'll probably be retired and in a coffin before that ever happens.

But people shouldn't compare one character to another if they don't want their actions compared as well.

 

[BigJake]

I'm holding out for people to retire the practice first.

You'll probably be retired and in a coffin before that ever happens.

No doubt. But if one is to dream, why not dream big?

 

[Warped9]

People often come back to this, but I find it groundless. Uhura admitting to fear is not the same as being paralyzed by fear. And Uhura has never been paralyzed by fear. Any intelligent person knows fear, but their measure is being able to go forward in spite of that fear. Even Kirk has admitted to fear (re: "Miri") and he's never been called on it. Kirk can even be seen as agitated as the Constellation is barreling into the maw of the doomsday machine and yet he doesn't lose it. McCoy is obviously frightened in TFF after seeing this entity strike down his friends and yet he doesn't lose it either.

It's a silly criticism of Uhura.

It's not a silly criticism when her fear paralyzes her to the point that she has to get a pep talk from the captain to follow her orders. Especially when none of the men in the group need the same pep talk, it makes the character look weak.

Yes, it is silly. No, she wasn't paralyzed. And it would have been wholly unbelievable for her not to be frightened given the circumstances they found themselves in. Candidly if I suddenly found myself in a place such as depicted in "Mirror, Mirror" I certainly would have been scared shitless.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, it is silly. No, she wasn't paralyzed. And it would have been wholly unbelievable for her not to be frightened given the circumstances they found themselves in. Candidly if I suddenly found myself in a place such as depicted in "Mirror, Mirror" I certainly would have been scared shitless.

I'll take it that you're not a trained military officer and neither am I. So it would be normal for us to be scared shitless during such a scenario. But Uhura is a trained military officer, she should have been able to handle herself every bit as well as the men in the landing party.

 

[Warped9]

Yes, it is silly. No, she wasn't paralyzed. And it would have been wholly unbelievable for her not to be frightened given the circumstances they found themselves in. Candidly if I suddenly found myself in a place such as depicted in "Mirror, Mirror" I certainly would have been scared shitless.

I'll take it that you're not a trained military officer and neither am I. So it would be normal for us to be scared shitless during such a scenario. But Uhura is a trained military officer, she should have been able to handle herself every bit as well as the men in the landing party.

Do you know any trained military people who have suddenly found themselves in a murderous mirror universe?

 

[BillJ]

As an aside, it's funny that TOS still gets my adrenaline going when discussing it. I can't say the same for the later series.

 

[BillJ]

Do you know any trained military people who have suddenly found themselves in a murderous mirror universe?

I really expected a better comeback than this. Why weren't the men all frightened and openly expressing it then? It's a failing of the series, the way it treats women for the most part, whether you like it or not.

 

[BigJake]

As an aside, it's funny that TOS still gets my adrenaline going when discussing it. I can't say the same for the later series.

I've gotten in a few fistfights defending Counsellor Troi's honour.

I'm with Warped9 on this one, I do think you're overselling Uhura's supposed terror in "Mirror, Mirror." She alludes to it once and then goes about her job -- and alluding to it is understandable in the bizarre circumstances -- it's not as though she breaks down simpering, freaks out or locks up.

 

[Clark Terrell]

I'm with Warped9 on this one, I do think you're overselling Uhura's supposed terror in "Mirror, Mirror." She alludes to it once and then goes about her job -- and alluding to it is understandable in the bizarre circumstances -- it's not as though she breaks down simpering, freaks out or locks up.

I agree. She seems fine after Kirk's pep-talk and does what she's supposed to do.

 

[BillJ]

I'm with Warped9 on this one, I do think you're overselling Uhura's supposed terror in "Mirror, Mirror." She alludes to it once and then goes about her job -- and alluding to it is understandable in the bizarre circumstances -- it's not as though she breaks down simpering, freaks out or locks up.

But would she have been able to do the job without the pep talk? Why were none of the men "frightened"?

I love Nichelle Nichols, but I think we saw too little of the character to know how she would've reacted to things around her when she was a decade younger. People change. I know I'm not the same person I was ten years ago. I think it's out of line to call Saldana's version of the character a "shrew" when there is fifty-years and much societal change between the two versions.

If I had to go one a mission with one of them: I'd pick the Abramsverse version of the character.