Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Saraban

[OneBuckFilms]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

The music is there, as recorded and mixed, but the film edit was not recreated.

So not as used in the film.

Just seems a little strange - the notes mention that for some of the tracks the mix was altered rather than Jerry's prefered 'live' performances - so both were included, yet it then leaves out that edit.

It's not a partically tidy edit, but it was used in the film. With a new shortened reprisal to end Jerry's time on the franchise

Not when one considers project scope.

They didn't recreate the edits that were made for post production, simply presented the complete cues as recorded and mixed ready for post production.

I've heard this crop up for many soundtracks, however the composer's intended version of the music really should win out.

For the edit of that cue, one has the DVD/Blu-Ray, but for the cue as the composer intended, we have the CD.

I think there's a place where a new cue was created from pieces of other cues editorially, but this wasn't recreated either for the same reason.

Basically, you have every second of music recorded for the movie, and mixed for the movie, in their original form.

If they had gone the route of recreating the film edits of cues, it becomes a gray area, an you end up considering whether to recreate things like volume fluctuations, whether to provide it from the music stems from post production to get the exact film edits etc., and rather than get a listenable album, you get an isolated score.

See The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition for details on how bad that turns out.

 

[Rarewolf]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

He's referring to the actual film version of the end credits, which inexplicably end twice, because of additional music editing.

Neil

I tend to view it as a final encore

See The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition for details on how bad that turns out.

Doesn't stop people asking for the full Attack Of The Clones or Revenge Of The Sith though

I suppose I've been going by 12 year old assumptions following the VIII/IX Pattern - that the End titles should have been Theme from TMP/new main theme/reprisal from TMP - which is just what the original album track does - and that most of the further editing was done out of Jerry's influence.

Though reading the notes it seems he was more involved in most of the changes than I assumed.

I also assumed that opening credits had been planned and their loss was late in the day - hence a need for last minute extended end titles - that Jerry at least composed Shinzon's theme for that purpose; but I guess that's not the case either.

Its actually more interesting than that. The Theatrical end theme is shorter than the Deluxe (as composed) version - despite the added reprisal!

(Give or take a few seconds)

A New Ending - Original album version 6'10
Blue Skies & Theme from TMP 1'48/Shinzon's Theme 3'00/reprisal from TMP 1'23

A New Ending - Deluxe version 8'35
Blue Skies & Theme from TMP 1'48/Final Flight 2'28/Shinzon's Theme 2'51/reprisal from TMP 1'26

Theatrical End Titles 7'37
Blue Skies & Theme from TMP 1'48/Final Flight 2'52/reprisal from TMP 1'16 /Shinzon's Theme Last '55 /shortened '43 reprisal from TMP

So I suppose the real question is why they bothered to create such an odd theatrical edit with two reprisals when they had enough music to cover the credits without it. They could have just used more of Shinzon's theme. Instead they went back to use more of Final Flight and TMP.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

It absolutely amazes me that after all this time and how much of a niche market soundtracks (let alone Star Trek soundtracks) have become, there are still those who will find things to complain about.

If there's one constant in the universe, it's that there will always be a Star Trek fan out there complaining about something.

 

[Harvey]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

It's what we do.

But, yeah, I'm not complaining here. Compared to the state of Trek soundtracks in the '90s (and even early 2000s) what we have right now is incredible.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

I agree.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

I always wonder what the hell is the problem with releasing complete soundtracks right to begin with? How hard can it be?

 

[Tosk]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

The usual reason...it's more expensive.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

The usual reason...it's more expensive.

But how much more expensive?

 

[Tosk]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

Enough that they usually don't want to spend it.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

I always wonder what the hell is the problem with releasing complete soundtracks right to begin with? How hard can it be?

It's the same reason that drives everything else in this life: money. Release a product half done, give the public a taste, then a few years later, release it again with additions, forcing them to double dip, and therefore, generate, you guessed it more money.

My source on this? My dad. Dad was a salesman (In various endevors) for 45 years, and he told me himself this is how the market works.

It's also why I didn't follow him into the business.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

I always wonder what the hell is the problem with releasing complete soundtracks right to begin with? How hard can it be?

It's the same reason that drives everything else in this life: money. Release a product half done, give the public a taste, then a few years later, release it again with additions, forcing them to double dip, and therefore, generate, you guessed it more money.

My source on this? My dad. Dad was a salesman (In various endevors) for 45 years, and he told me himself this is how the market works.

It's also why I didn't follow him into the business.

That one I don't buy in these cases. Nobody went "We'll release half the soundtrack now, and ten+ years later we'll release the complete album."

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

See The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition for details on how bad that turns out.

... I liked it, but I wouldn't call that particular release being the version that gave us the "exact film edits" since that ended up not being the case.

And what's wrong with an isolated score? Some folks like that.

 

[Rarewolf]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

If there's one constant in the universe, it's that there will always be a Star Trek fan out there complaining about something.

Is that a complaint?

I'm curious actually - what Star Trek movie stock music e.g. 'Magic Carpet Ride' isn't on the revised editions?

 

[RandyS]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

I always wonder what the hell is the problem with releasing complete soundtracks right to begin with? How hard can it be?

It's the same reason that drives everything else in this life: money. Release a product half done, give the public a taste, then a few years later, release it again with additions, forcing them to double dip, and therefore, generate, you guessed it more money.

My source on this? My dad. Dad was a salesman (In various endevors) for 45 years, and he told me himself this is how the market works.

It's also why I didn't follow him into the business.

That one I don't buy in these cases. Nobody went "We'll release half the soundtrack now, and ten+ years later we'll release the complete album."

You're mostly likely right. I was only sharing what what dad once told me about the world of business. It may, or may not have any bearing on this case.

But I do think that the answer to the question why this soundtrack was released twice IS in fact, money.

 

[trekker670]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

How is releasing the complete soundtrack for a film more costly at the time of the film's release than 10+ years later?

The soundtrack is already recorded and mastered for use on the film, I would imagine very little work would be required to release the complete soundtrack than half of it. You have the fresh masters of the recordings, and you already have a team working on it to produce it for the album, the work required for the additional tracks is minor, compared to coming back ten years later, hoping you can find the original recordings, gathering a new team, getting them up to speed on the soundtrack, re-do the work that was done for the initial release, and then do the remaining tracks from scratch. The difference in cost between releasing a 1-disc set and a 2-disc set is a matter of a few cents per copy, so that's not a valid excuse either. I wholeheartedly believe it's to prolong the sales of the soundtrack and encourage people to double-dip.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

That is about what I was thinking as well.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

the work required for the additional tracks is minor

You lost me right here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

That is about what I was thinking as well.

As you have ably demonstrated over the years here, you also have no idea what you're talking about.

Neither of you have any idea what you're talking about. It's a shame IndySolo was driven away from these threads by the likes of you; he'd tell you first that the work involved in soundtrack editing, engineering, and and mastering is anything but "minor."

More importantly: Lose the sense of entitlement, dude. You're forgetting a very key piece of information here: none of us own the rights to this music. Paramount could put out a CD every year with just one track on each disc if they wanted to.

You clearly don't work in sales nor in motion picture merchandising or marketing so instead of foaming at the mouth, try listening to other people here who might know better.

Instead of biting at the generous and loving hands that have gone to the effort and expense of creating these wonderful products for us to have in what is an increasingly niche and collector's market, be grateful that they thought it was worthwhile to do the work to bring this music to people like us, even though they almost definitely knew they wouldn't be able to please everyone, and especially from a movie that tanked as badly as Nemesis did.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

The short, non-insider version of why soundtracks aren't so easy to get out there. Anyone in the industry, please correct me where I go astray, but this is how I understand it:

In order for film music to be released, people must be paid. Every musician in the orchestra, every vocalist in the chorus, etc. Until somewhat recently, the fees to release soundtracks (called “re use fees”) were extremely and prohibitively expensive. So much so that for years, labels would release 30 to 45 minute soundtrack albums because that’s all they could afford. And most often, they had a hard time getting their money back in sales.

Also, composer produced albums (i.e. albums produced by the score’s composer) were subject to his or her specifications. Jerry Goldsmith was involved in the production, sequencing and duration of his albums. He didn’t like releasing complete scores, didn’t think most of his music needed to be out there, and was very much in favor of short albums.

Eventually, the musician’s union became reasonable and started working with labels to get the work out there in expanded and complete form. The studios like Paramount and Universal and Disney finally opened up their vaults and allowed expanded and complete score albums to be produced and sold. Jerry Goldsmith, sadly, passed away, and he is no longer here to object or stop the release of his music.

And there are niche labels to actually release this stuff, since the general public doesn’t give a crap about “that music in movies what has no words.”

No it’s not double dipping. It’s the changing face of the business.

Today, most scores are released in single CD form (when they're on physical media at all). That's 79 minutes maximum. That still may not be the complete score, since movies have a lot more music these days. But unless labels have a really good reason to think the score will be a money maker, they won't go the double album route. But still, the fees aren't all that cheap, just more reasonable and applying primarily to limited run releases; it's a sliding scale of fees (1000 unit runs are less expensive than 3000 units and so on). The score for Star Trek Into Darkness was still very short, owing to the expense of a longer release. The expanded 2009 score was missing vocal overlays because it was too expensive to include them.

It ain't so easy, kids, unless you have deeeep pockets.

 

[trekker670]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

the work required for the additional tracks is minor

You lost me right here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

That is about what I was thinking as well.

As you have ably demonstrated over the years here, you also have no idea what you're talking about.

Neither of you have any idea what you're talking about. It's a shame IndySolo was driven away from these threads by the likes of you; he'd tell you first that the work involved in soundtrack editing, engineering, and and mastering is anything but "minor."

Overreact much?

For the record, I'm an audio engineer, so I do in fact know what is involved. Don't make assumptions on my occupation and expertise based on what you think happens in the industry. If you read my original statement I said:

the work required for the additional tracks is minor

(emphasis added)

I'm well aware of the work that's involved in releasing each track, but the amount of work required per track is greatly reduced when you're doing all at one rather than later on, with older recording that then have to be cleaned up during the process.

ssosmcin has the real answer right there, the choice was made not because of it being too labor intensive to master the tracks for a soundtrack release, but because of the composer's wishes and the fees required by the musicians.

Next time you feel like accusing people of not knowing what they're talking about, I would recommend you do some research yourself before wasting our time with your unenlightened rants.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Star Trek: Nemesis - The Deluxe Edition Soundtrack from Varèse Sar

Well well well. Looks like i did assume incorrectly. Though I do know what I'm talking about. I am friends with several of the guys at the record label, I lived with one of them for over three years, and I'm quite familiar with the process by which they do their work. It is painstaking and time consuming and requires a lot of time and patience. That you are an audio engineer and you still stumble in here bloviating about why you can't get more, sooner ... its the same old argument from the same old entitled fans that those guys at the label deal with all the time.

Why not just be grateful for what we have? Why not spend time enjoying rather than complaining?