NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

[BillJ]

He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.

Not to mention later going after him with a phaser rifle, with intent to kill!

By that point Mitchell had choked out Kelso and attacked Kirk, Spock and Piper.

 

[Pauln6]

It's not the place of a Federation captain (or any military officer) to act as judge, jury, and executioner. You might end up there but it's really supposed to be a decision you reach without another reasonable choice. The fact that your enemy has committed greater war crimes does not justify you committing a war crime yourself.

Yes sometimes it is the job of a Starship Captain to act as judge, jury and executioner.

Plenty of times in TOS Kirk made arbitrary decision based on his experience and knowledge as a Federation Captain. As soon as he found a method he killed those flying things on Deneva. He killed that giant amoeba thingy. Also the cloud creature in Obsession, the Zetarians. Then there's General Order 24.

He even made the decision to strand Gary Mitchell. Even though at the time Gary had committed no crime.

And while nuKirk didn't have PrimeKirk's years of experience its not that hard to work out you don't let a mass murderer go no matter what.

You just hope that they always pick the right person for the Captain's job.

The issue for me though is the thought processes that went into those decisions. We see kirk weighing up the pros and cons, wrestling with his conscience, taking advice, and deciding what he has to do.

In Mitchell's case there is dialogue earlier in the episode that establishes the level of threat that Mitchell represents and also that his power drain is temporary therefore going for the kill is definitely still in the realm of self defence.

The flip side is e.g. he stopped Riley from executing Kodos, or he decides that killing the Gorn is wrong.

The Spectre of the Gun sums if up doesn't it? He wanted to kill but fought against that instinct and used reason instead. I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort. That would have been ending B if Nero did not destroy himself.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

 

[Pauln6]

The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Which is also established in dialogue.

 

[BillJ]

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Which is also established in dialogue.

Yet when they show it moving through the black hole, it looks at least partially intact.

 

[Pauln6]

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Which is also established in dialogue.

Yet when they show it moving through the black hole, it looks at least partially intact.

The wibbly wobbly science of red matter doesn't help us reach a logical conclusion here either.

 

[sonak]

The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Why take the chance? If Nero is going to die anyway, then firing on him to ensure that he's destroyed makes no difference. If there's a chance Nero may escape, then Kirk should DEFINITELY fire on him. Either way, the objection makes no sense except as a "it's poor form to fire on a dying man" objection, which is not a very serious objection, especially since Kirk is operating as a soldier lawfully going after a war criminal.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I see you are not worth trying to discuss anything with.

Well, you are welcome to try.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But does that need to be explained in explicit film dialogue to be something we can take into consideration here? We thought of it; can't general audiences be expected to do the same?

Exactly. If the film dialogue explains everything, we have absolutely nothing to discuss over drinks after seeing the film except "Did you enjoy it?" and the answer "Yes" or "No".

No debate over moral dilemmas, warp speeds, "Who the hell was that alien-looking cyborg guy in STiD?", "What did the whales say to the Probe?", or "Poor ol' Tuvix, eh?"

I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort.

He's not quite there yet.

 

[Belz...]

Dirty Vulcan fighting!

Loved it, seeing Spock use all those techs in combat, for once.

there's no faulty moral compass or meaningful debate here. Kirk was stopping a genocidal war criminal and acting to preserve innocent lives.

Indeed. Some people complained about the Vengeance's crash, as it that was the Enterprise crew's fault.

And I think Picard should have put the virus in Hugh. If that could have worked billions might have been saved. The billions and billions taken over by the Borg in the Delta Quadrant after Picard had not made the tough decision.

Yeah, sometimes Picard's morals went in the way of... well, other morals.

Correct, which is why I suggested an attempt should be made to arrest him and when that failed stress that there was still a possibility that he might escape. As it was, the only express dialogue was that Nero's ship was about to be destroyed.

How are you supposed to rescue Nero from the center of an expanding black hole ? Even if Nero accepted Kirk's offer, I don't see what his plan was.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

E.g. Despite the ship being beyond he event horizon of a black hole, subspace communications were still working. It's feasible that transporters might work - certainly worth a try

Just like Kirk tried to rescue the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror or Khan in Wrath of Khan.

Oh wait he didn't.

Seriously why does nuKirk have to jump through hoops to rescue defeated enemies who tried to kill him when Prime Kirk never had to.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

 

[urbandefault]

I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

The Ceti eel had just extricated itself from a Starfleet officer. No one knew if it was aggressive enough to attack someone else. I'd have stomped the crap out of it.

In "The Man Trap" Ol' Salty had killed a whole bunch of people already, and was in the process of sucking the life out of Kirk. Self defense (or the defense of others) is a valid legal cause for using deadly force in most jurisdictions. Most certainly in this case.

I think Trelayne's Salt Vampire was freeze dried.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

"We come in peace. Shoot to kill."

 

[sonak]

I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.

And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)

"To seek out new life..."

was there really that much fan anger over it? Roddenberry was snarky about it, saying that Kirk acted like an old woman stamping on a cockroach, but then Roddenberry was bitter about his treatment during TWOK. I've never heard or read much complaint from actual fans.

 

[Pauln6]

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

Why take the chance? If Nero is going to die anyway, then firing on him to ensure that he's destroyed makes no difference. If there's a chance Nero may escape, then Kirk should DEFINITELY fire on him. Either way, the objection makes no sense except as a "it's poor form to fire on a dying man" objection, which is not a very serious objection, especially since Kirk is operating as a soldier lawfully going after a war criminal.

But does that need to be explained in explicit film dialogue to be something we can take into consideration here? We thought of it; can't general audiences be expected to do the same?

Exactly. If the film dialogue explains everything, we have absolutely nothing to discuss over drinks after seeing the film except "Did you enjoy it?" and the answer "Yes" or "No".

No debate over moral dilemmas, warp speeds, "Who the hell was that alien-looking cyborg guy in STiD?", "What did the whales say to the Probe?", or "Poor ol' Tuvix, eh?"

I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort.

He's not quite there yet.

All good points. In fact one of the most irritating things about SWIII was that they spent the last half an hour tying up loose ends and explicitly revealing spoilers about the original trilogy. Just in case you didn't get it at home - LUKE... LEIA... ACK!

However, I think that's a bit different to expecting us to believe that Kirk meant the opposite of what he said in dialogue because we know he's tricksy. Like I said before I don't think they had the means to rescue Nero or his crew and I do think there was the possibility of Nero or any surviving technolgy posing a threat to whoever was at the other end of that wormhole (probably with the survivors of Vulcan). My objection is to Kirk's explicit reasoning, rather than his ultimate actions.

It's poor form to fire on a dying man if there are other options to consider. And whether you are lawfully pursuing a war criminal or not, summarily executing said war criminal and others with him could, in itself, be a war crime.

As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!

 

[Set Harth]

Kirk doesn't have to not mean what he says - he just doesn't have to be 100% correct.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk isn't a cop. This was a combat situation, not an arrest.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The express dialogue tells the viewer that Nero isn't a threat.

That same viewer watched Nero's ship survive passage through a black hole before. Again, it's not all about dialogue, nor is something automatically true just because Kirk says it ( see: Nibiru ).

I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fully operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.

No more mortally wounded from the Jellyfish collision than it would have been after the similar kamikaze run of the Kelvin, after which it was fully repaired and set out to wreak more havoc. In fact, given the Jellyfish's much smaller size vs. the Kelvin, the damage would have been far less severe.

The Red Matter's effect on the ship is unknown. It could have crushed it in damaged condition, or it could have simply acted as a passageway to another universe Nero can do more harm in. Kirk and Spock can't know for sure, hence their decision when Nero refuses to surrender. Even without any more Red Matter, Nero and the Narada posed a major threat with clear genocidal intent, and there are no shortage of alternate planet/star destroying WMDs available (not to mention just using your own ship at warp to collide with a planet). Why take the risk of letting him possibly escape?

Alternatively, if your view is that the Narada was destined to be crushed into oblivion no matter what Kirk did, maybe his actions could be considered a mercy killing of sorts, speeding the process along rather than making the Narada crew slowly be crushed.

 

[Therin of Andor]

As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!

Taken for granite.