Betreka Nebula incident.

[desfem79]

I wonder how "a minor skirmish" can last for eighteen years.

then again the size of a conflict is defined by the resources used and the losses, not by the time. for instance, the Civil War was thus a bigger conflict than the US-Mexican War, or WWI was a bigger conflict for the UK than the Napoleonic Wars. So I guess by that reasoning Garak was right, if only a few ships were destroyed each year.

 

[Avro Arrow]

^ If you like reading Star Trek novels, The Art of the Impossible by Keith R. A. DeCandido details the Betreka Nebula Incident. I recall it being quite good. However, note that due to the timeframe it takes place in, I don't believe there are a lot of on-screen characters in the book, if that's a problem for you.

 

[Pavonis]

Almost nothing Garak says is true. If he said the Betreka incident was a minor skirmish then it probably was an all-out war. If he said something was one thing, you can be certain it definitely was anything but that one thing.

 

[KRAD]

^ If you like reading Star Trek novels, The Art of the Impossible by Keith R. A. DeCandido details the Betreka Nebula Incident. I recall it being quite good. However, note that due to the timeframe it takes place in, I don't believe there are a lot of on-screen characters in the book, if that's a problem for you.

Actually, several on-screen characters are in the book, though some only appeared on-screen once or a few times. The novel takes place between 2328 and 2346, so starting 35 years after Star Trek VI and ending 18 years prior to "Encounter at Farpoint."

Here's what should be a comprehensive list of all the on-screen characters who appear (I wrote the book a decade ago...):

Curzon Dax
Uhura
Rachel Garrett
Vance Haden
Sergey Rozhenko
Helena Rozhenko
Ian Troi
Deanna Troi (as a six-year-old)
Lwaxana Troi
Enabran Tain
Corbin Entek
Legate Kell
K'mpec
Kang
Kor
Worf (from Star Trek VI)
Worf (from TNG/DS9, also as a six-year-old)
Kurn (as an infant)
Kahlest
L'Kor
Gi'ral
Sarek
Koval
Tokath

I think that's all of them, but I'm sure I forgot someone..........

 

[Avro Arrow]

^ That's from memory? I am... suitably impressed!

 

[Dukhat]

^ If you like reading Star Trek novels, The Art of the Impossible by Keith R. A. DeCandido details the Betreka Nebula Incident. I recall it being quite good. However, note that due to the timeframe it takes place in, I don't believe there are a lot of on-screen characters in the book, if that's a problem for you.

While I enjoyed the book, it was a bit annoying that the entire premise of it was based on what was essentially a throwaway line of dialogue in one episode. Sometimes silly script lines don't always need a convoluted explanation...they're just that: silly lines.

 

[KRAD]

While I enjoyed the book, it was a bit annoying that the entire premise of it was based on what was essentially a throwaway line of dialogue in one episode. Sometimes silly script lines don't always need a convoluted explanation...they're just that: silly lines.

*shrug* I didn't see them as "silly lines" at all, I saw it as two people discussing a historical event involving two of the major powers of the quadrant.

 

[Dukhat]

While I enjoyed the book, it was a bit annoying that the entire premise of it was based on what was essentially a throwaway line of dialogue in one episode. Sometimes silly script lines don't always need a convoluted explanation...they're just that: silly lines.

*shrug* I didn't see them as "silly lines" at all, I saw it as two people discussing a historical event involving two of the major powers of the quadrant.

Don't get me wrong; I thoroughly enjoyed the book and the creative approach you took with it. However, here's the dialogue about it from the episode:

GARAK: "I'm serious, Doctor. Thanks to your ministrations, I'm almost completely healed. The damage I did to them will last a lifetime. What I can't understand is their inexplicable hostility toward me. Maligning Constable Odo is one thing... after all he is a changeling and the Klingons don't know him as well as we do. But relations between the Klingon and Cardassian Empires have never been anything but amicable."

BASHIR: "With the exception of the Betreka Nebula incident."

GARAK: (dismissive) "A minor skirmish."

BASHIR: "That lasted eighteen years!"

GARAK: "That was ages ago. (a beat) Maybe they decided they just didn't like me?"

BASHIR: (humoring him) "Not like you? Impossible."

GARAK: "You're right, as always, Doctor. (smiles) They must've mistaken me for someone else."


It seems to me that in the context of the script, it was nothing more than a throwaway line to enhance the humorous banter between Garak and Bashir. YMMV.

 

[Sci]

While I enjoyed the book, it was a bit annoying that the entire premise of it was based on what was essentially a throwaway line of dialogue in one episode. Sometimes silly script lines don't always need a convoluted explanation...they're just that: silly lines.

*shrug* I didn't see them as "silly lines" at all, I saw it as two people discussing a historical event involving two of the major powers of the quadrant.

Don't get me wrong; I thoroughly enjoyed the book and the creative approach you took with it. However, here's the dialogue about it from the episode:

GARAK: "I'm serious, Doctor. Thanks to your ministrations, I'm almost completely healed. The damage I did to them will last a lifetime. What I can't understand is their inexplicable hostility toward me. Maligning Constable Odo is one thing... after all he is a changeling and the Klingons don't know him as well as we do. But relations between the Klingon and Cardassian Empires have never been anything but amicable."

BASHIR: "With the exception of the Betreka Nebula incident."

GARAK: (dismissive) "A minor skirmish."

BASHIR: "That lasted eighteen years!"

GARAK: "That was ages ago. (a beat) Maybe they decided they just didn't like me?"

BASHIR: (humoring him) "Not like you? Impossible."

GARAK: "You're right, as always, Doctor. (smiles) They must've mistaken me for someone else."


It seems to me that in the context of the script, it was nothing more than a throwaway line to enhance the humorous banter between Garak and Bashir. YMMV.

... I don't see how you can argue that, since it establishes very clearly a history of animosity between the Cardassian Union and the Klingon Empire as part of the historical backdrop of the DSN world.

 

[Dukhat]

*shrug* I didn't see them as "silly lines" at all, I saw it as two people discussing a historical event involving two of the major powers of the quadrant.

Don't get me wrong; I thoroughly enjoyed the book and the creative approach you took with it. However, here's the dialogue about it from the episode:

GARAK: "I'm serious, Doctor. Thanks to your ministrations, I'm almost completely healed. The damage I did to them will last a lifetime. What I can't understand is their inexplicable hostility toward me. Maligning Constable Odo is one thing... after all he is a changeling and the Klingons don't know him as well as we do. But relations between the Klingon and Cardassian Empires have never been anything but amicable."

BASHIR: "With the exception of the Betreka Nebula incident."

GARAK: (dismissive) "A minor skirmish."

BASHIR: "That lasted eighteen years!"

GARAK: "That was ages ago. (a beat) Maybe they decided they just didn't like me?"

BASHIR: (humoring him) "Not like you? Impossible."

GARAK: "You're right, as always, Doctor. (smiles) They must've mistaken me for someone else."


It seems to me that in the context of the script, it was nothing more than a throwaway line to enhance the humorous banter between Garak and Bashir. YMMV.

... I don't see how you can argue that, since it establishes very clearly a history of animosity between the Cardassian Union and the Klingon Empire as part of the historical backdrop of the DSN world.

Because it was just an offhand comment that was never referenced or referred to again? Compare that with the Khitomer massacre, which was brought up numerous times in TNG. And that only happened in one day, AFAIK. You'd think an eighteen year battle would be talked about a lot more (especially by the Klingons), but it wasn't, because it was just a throwaway line.

Look, I'm not making this out to be that big a deal. It was a good book. But it was based on some scriptwriter's afterthought, is all I'm saying. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it is what it is.

 

[Sci]

... I don't see how you can argue that, since it establishes very clearly a history of animosity between the Cardassian Union and the Klingon Empire as part of the historical backdrop of the DSN world.

Because it was just an offhand comment that was never referenced or referred to again?

Yet it also explains a lot about Klingon-Cardassian relations during the run of DSN.

Compare that with the Khitomer massacre, which was brought up numerous times in TNG. And that only happened in one day, AFAIK.

It probably helps that one of TNG's main characters was a survivor of that massacre...

You'd think an eighteen year battle would be talked about a lot more (especially by the Klingons),

Who says it was a battle? "Incident" implies that it was some sort of political conflict, not necessarily a battle per se. I agree that it was a shame they didn't expand more on it, but it's not like it didn't make sense in explaining part of Klingon-Cardassian relations.

And it's not unprecedented in the real world for relevant historical facts to go unmentioned in conversation; how often do people, in discussing the origins of the Cold War, talk about U.S. and allied intervention in the Russian Civil War? How often did people, in discussing the rise of Hugo Chavez, talk about U.S. occupations of Latin American countries in the early 20th Century? Etc.

Look, I'm not making this out to be that big a deal. It was a good book. But it was based on some scriptwriter's afterthought, is all

Or maybe it wasn't an afterthought. Maybe it was simply something they meant to get back to but never did. You really have no idea what sort of creative intent those episode writers had when the line was written.

 

[Dukhat]

Yet it also explains a lot about Klingon-Cardassian relations during the run of DSN.

It does? How?

It probably helps that one of TNG's main characters was a survivor of that massacre...

True.

Who says it was a battle? "Incident" implies that it was some sort of political conflict, not necessarily a battle per se. I agree that it was a shame they didn't expand more on it, but it's not like it didn't make sense in explaining part of Klingon-Cardassian relations.

Again, I'm not seeing how this explains their relations, other than that it was an "incident" in which no one actually knows what happened, because the scriptwriter never bothered to explain it. Hence, an afterthought.

Or maybe it wasn't an afterthought. Maybe it was simply something they meant to get back to but never did. You really have no idea what sort of creative intent those episode writers had when the line was written.

With all due respect, you don't know either. Yeah, it's my opinion, but I'm basing that opinion on what did happen, not what didn't.

 

[desfem79]

... I don't see how you can argue that, since it establishes very clearly a history of animosity between the Cardassian Union and the Klingon Empire as part of the historical backdrop of the DSN world.

Because it was just an offhand comment that was never referenced or referred to again?

Yet it also explains a lot about Klingon-Cardassian relations during the run of DSN.



It probably helps that one of TNG's main characters was a survivor of that massacre...

You'd think an eighteen year battle would be talked about a lot more (especially by the Klingons),

Who says it was a battle? "Incident" implies that it was some sort of political conflict, not necessarily a battle per se. I agree that it was a shame they didn't expand more on it, but it's not like it didn't make sense in explaining part of Klingon-Cardassian relations.

And it's not unprecedented in the real world for relevant historical facts to go unmentioned in conversation; how often do people, in discussing the origins of the Cold War, talk about U.S. and allied intervention in the Russian Civil War? How often did people, in discussing the rise of Hugo Chavez, talk about U.S. occupations of Latin American countries in the early 20th Century? Etc.

Look, I'm not making this out to be that big a deal. It was a good book. But it was based on some scriptwriter's afterthought, is all

Or maybe it wasn't an afterthought. Maybe it was simply something they meant to get back to but never did. You really have no idea what sort of creative intent those episode writers had when the line was written.

Say the US and Mexico exchanged shots across the Rio Grande for 18 years. This is not a major conflict, but in the grand scheme is a minor skirmish.

 

[warriorsfan]

Say the US and Mexico exchanged shots across the Rio Grande for 18 years. This is not a major conflict, but in the grand scheme is a minor skirmish.

Well in the real world, South Korea and North Korea have engaged in "minor skirmishes" with some regularity for over 50 years now since the Korean War armistice. Every couple of years, they'll trade artillery fire or engage in a naval skirmish that results in deaths or even ships sunk. There's no shortage of actual examples of this kind of long-term skirmishing taking place. India and Pakistan is another example. So it would be easy to imagine something almost identical taking place between Klingons and Cardassians along a shared space border.

 

[Sci]

Yet it also explains a lot about Klingon-Cardassian relations during the run of DSN.

It does? How?

By establishing a long history of antagonism, which helps explain one-another's attitudes towards each other, and why the Klingons were so eager to invade Cardassia.

Who says it was a battle? "Incident" implies that it was some sort of political conflict, not necessarily a battle per se. I agree that it was a shame they didn't expand more on it, but it's not like it didn't make sense in explaining part of Klingon-Cardassian relations.

Again, I'm not seeing how this explains their relations, other than that it was an "incident" in which no one actually knows what happened, because the scriptwriter never bothered to explain it. Hence, an afterthought.

Or maybe it wasn't an afterthought. Maybe it was simply something they meant to get back to but never did. You really have no idea what sort of creative intent those episode writers had when the line was written.

With all due respect, you don't know either.

Which is why I did not speculate as to the writer's intent.

 

[Dukhat]

By establishing a long history of antagonism, which helps explain one-another's attitudes towards each other, and why the Klingons were so eager to invade Cardassia.

Not according to Garak. He seemed to think the incident was unimportant, no matter how long it lasted.

Which is why I did not speculate as to the writer's intent.

Saying it was "something they meant to get back to but never did" is not speculating about the writer's intent?

I think the line was a throwaway one. You don't. Fine. Argument over.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Well if you think about it, the only actual wars between the Federation and the Klingon Empire were the ones in 2267 and 2372-2373. As the former only lasted only about a day before the Organians put a stop to it, one might consider it only a minor speed bump on track to the Khitomer Conference of 2293 and the formal alliance that followed the Khitomer Massacre of 2346.

 

[PhoenixClass]

I think Garak was just using sarcastic understatement.