24 Doctors! Oh My! (Spoilers)

[Christopher]

I love the idea of the Daleks representing the argumentative fans.

Although in the earlier scene where the Doctor was explaining to Clara how he'd expended all his regenerations, Clara was definitely standing in for the audience there. Their dialogue practically recapitulated some of the Internet discussions I've seen about how many lives he had or hadn't used up.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

To be fair, the Companion often stands in for the audience when exposition is necessary.

 

[Green Lantern]

Smith is not the 13th incarnation of the doctor. he merely used up all his regenerations. I get tired when people say hat Smith's number 13. In the Stolen Earth when David Tennant regenerated into himself, he used up a "packet" of regeneration energy but he didn't become a new incarnation. The whole point was he would remain the same incarnation. So that makes Smith the twelfth incarnation of the doctor (due to John Hurt) but he has already used up all his regeneration energy. So the Valeyard according to The Trial of a Timelord comes between Smith and Capaldi, and maybe series 8 or a future series with Capaldi might focus on the Valeyard. Yay! With the doctor being stuck on Trenzalore or "Christmas" for centuries and the manifestation likely beginning with the Dream Lord in "Amy's Choice", it's probably had tons of time to manifest itself and maybe soon manifest itself into reality. Maybe the regeneration from Smith to Capaldi triggered it off. (SPOILERS!) Also, there are rumours that The Master might be appearing in series 8, and he had a key part in Trial of a Timelord.

Also, in The name of the Doctor, The Valeyard was referenced so we know Moffat hasn't just forgotten him.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also, in The name of the Doctor, The Valeyard was referenced

How so, exactly?

 

[Christopher]

^The Great Intelligence/Simeon referenced the Valeyard as one of the more malevolent names the Doctor is known by. "The Doctor lives his life in darker hues, day upon day, and he will have other names before the end. The Storm, the Beast, the Valeyard."

Smith is not the 13th incarnation of the doctor. he merely used up all his regenerations. I get tired when people say hat Smith's number 13. In the Stolen Earth when David Tennant regenerated into himself, he used up a "packet" of regeneration energy but he didn't become a new incarnation. The whole point was he would remain the same incarnation.

That depends on your definition. If you define "incarnation" as a distinct appearance and personality, then Tennant only counts as one. But if you define it as one of the 13 distinct lives a Time Lord gets, then Tennant counts as two incarnations that simply happened to be identical.

Smith is the Eleventh Doctor in every way that matters, but we now know that he was the twelfth distinct personality and the thirteenth distinct life of the Doctor. Those are all simultaneously true, but the latter two aren't particularly relevant except where the past two specials are concerned. So it's really not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Also, in The name of the Doctor, The Valeyard was referenced so we know Moffat hasn't just forgotten him.

Which was in the lead up to Trenzalore aka where the 11th Doctor bought it.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

The Master's exact words when describing The Valyard:

They made a deal with the Valeyard, or as I've always known him, the Doctor... There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you. The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation. And I may say, you do not improve with age.

Personally, I've always understood this to mean that the Valyard is one of the Doctor's future incarnations, not a being who "split off" from him. I took the Master's use of "Amalgamation" to merely be a way of describing this Doctor's personality. "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation" means that he doesn't know exactly which incarnation the Valyard is, but he knows its past #12.

 

[Christopher]

"somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation" means that he doesn't know exactly which incarnation the Valyard is, but he knows its past #12.

Except that the Master at the time had no reason to think it would ever be possible for the Doctor to have more than thirteen incarnations. He himself had to attempt to unleash the Eye of Harmony and destroy Gallifrey in order to try to gain a new life cycle, and though the Time Lords had offered him one, he had no reason to trust that it was really possible. And he certainly wouldn't believe that the Doctor would engage in his own body-snatching methods of extending his life. So when he said "final," he almost certainly meant "thirteenth."

 

[DWF]

The Valeyard reminds me of Marvel Comics version of The Magus, after obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet Adam Warlock seperated his good and evil halves from himself. Seperately they didn't have a complete existance, which is why the Valeyard needed the rest of the Doctor's lives to make himself a whole being.

It's very likely that like the Eternals, the Key To Time and the Guardians of Time, Moffat like RTD rejected the idea of the Valeyard because he thought it was too simple of a mythology, which was the claim for getting rid of the others.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

"somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation" means that he doesn't know exactly which incarnation the Valyard is, but he knows its past #12.

Except that the Master at the time had no reason to think it would ever be possible for the Doctor to have more than thirteen incarnations. He himself had to attempt to unleash the Eye of Harmony and destroy Gallifrey in order to try to gain a new life cycle, and though the Time Lords had offered him one, he had no reason to trust that it was really possible. And he certainly wouldn't believe that the Doctor would engage in his own body-snatching methods of extending his life. So when he said "final," he almost certainly meant "thirteenth."

However, since he didn't say "thirteenth" that gives a lot more flexibility should they ever want to go down that road.

The "between" at the time could have meant that, but it's still oddly phrased even in context (the whole I knew him as the Doctor type thing suggests he is the Doctor). I don't think there's a single correct interpretation of that line.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Well, given what we got:

Eighth Doctor
War Doctor (Ninth incarnation)
Ninth Doctor (Tenth incarnation)
Tenth Doctor (Eleventh incarnation)
Meta-Doctor (Twelfth incarnation)
Eleventh Doctor (thirteenth incarnation)

If we take things strictly by incarnations, then it has to be between the Meta-Doctor and the Eleventh Doctor... but its highly dubious, because the War Doctor didn't call himself the Doctor during the Time War, thus no one would REALLY know that the Doctor had thought in it other than key people that would know and, of course, the Daleks. Furthermore, its also dubious that he'd be aware of the Meta-Doctor, since he left for Pete's World almost as soon as he came to exist.

Yeah, I think the Valeyard issue, at this moment, is a bit of a mess...

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Why would the Valeyard originate at this point in the Doctors life? As far as i know his existence is motivated by the greed to gain more regeneration packets, which as of #11s regeneration into #12 is not an issue, since the Doctor now is at the beginning of a new regeneration cycle.

 

[DWF]

Why would the Valeyard originate at this point in the Doctors life? As far as i know his existence is motivated by the greed to gain more regeneration packets, which as of #11s regeneration into #12 is not an issue, since the Doctor now is at the beginning of a new regeneration cycle.

That was the reason for his deal with the High Council to take the sixth Doctor's remaining lives. Which was a smokescreen for taking the lives of the court and I've never understood why the last minute switch.

 

[Sindatur]

Since The Master said between The Twelfth and Final Incarnation, as of now, The Valeyard could come into existence anywhere between Meta-Crisis and The New Cycle's Final Incarnation.

It's true, it's highly illegal for Time Lord's to cross their own Time Lines, but, The Master was already fully versed on the Valeyard, which, at the time was at least 6 Regerations forward in time, what's another 12 Regerations forward when you've already committed such a Time Atrocity?

 

[DWF]

At the time though there was no hint of a new set of regenerations, not til after the Doctor changed his own time line in The Day and Time Of The Doctor. As long as Moffat's in charge we won't be seeing The Valeyard.

 

[Sindatur]

At the time though there was no hint of a new set of regenerations, not til after the Doctor changed his own time line in The Day and Time Of The Doctor. As long as Moffat's in charge we won't be seeing The Valeyard.

Sure, but, that doesn't mean that 'In Universe" The Master didn't know it would happen, and kept it to himself. Although it was simply luck in real world that it was phrased like that, In universe, it makes sense that, that, is precisely why he phrased it in that way

 

[DWF]

At the time though there was no hint of a new set of regenerations, not til after the Doctor changed his own time line in The Day and Time Of The Doctor. As long as Moffat's in charge we won't be seeing The Valeyard.

Sure, but, that doesn't mean that 'In Universe" The Master didn't know it would happen, and kept it to himself. Although it was simply luck in real world that it was phrased like that, In universe, it makes sense that, that, is precisely why he phrased it in that way

The Master was surprised that all the other Time Lords were dead in The Sound Of Drums when the Doctor told him about it. It's more likely that the Master gained his infomation from the Matrix since he had his own key to it.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Why would it be impossible for the Meta-Crisis Doctor to turn/become the Valeyard? The amalgamation thing would best fit that regeneration, after all, since he's not part of the "main" Doctor line, but an offshoot of him "born" out of his cut hand.

Is it because he's a human?

 

[Green Lantern]

^The Great Intelligence/Simeon referenced the Valeyard as one of the more malevolent names the Doctor is known by. "The Doctor lives his life in darker hues, day upon day, and he will have other names before the end. The Storm, the Beast, the Valeyard."

Smith is not the 13th incarnation of the doctor. he merely used up all his regenerations. I get tired when people say hat Smith's number 13. In the Stolen Earth when David Tennant regenerated into himself, he used up a "packet" of regeneration energy but he didn't become a new incarnation. The whole point was he would remain the same incarnation.

That depends on your definition. If you define "incarnation" as a distinct appearance and personality, then Tennant only counts as one. But if you define it as one of the 13 distinct lives a Time Lord gets, then Tennant counts as two incarnations that simply happened to be identical.

Smith is the Eleventh Doctor in every way that matters, but we now know that he was the twelfth distinct personality and the thirteenth distinct life of the Doctor. Those are all simultaneously true, but the latter two aren't particularly relevant except where the past two specials are concerned. So it's really not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Well, given what we got:

Eighth Doctor
War Doctor (Ninth incarnation)
Ninth Doctor (Tenth incarnation)
Tenth Doctor (Eleventh incarnation)
Meta-Doctor (Twelfth incarnation)
Eleventh Doctor (thirteenth incarnation)

If we take things strictly by incarnations, then it has to be between the Meta-Doctor and the Eleventh Doctor... but its highly dubious, because the War Doctor didn't call himself the Doctor during the Time War, thus no one would REALLY know that the Doctor had thought in it other than key people that would know and, of course, the Daleks. Furthermore, its also dubious that he'd be aware of the Meta-Doctor, since he left for Pete's World almost as soon as he came to exist.

Yeah, I think the Valeyard issue, at this moment, is a bit of a mess...

Well guys, here's my take on it:

William Hartnel: 0th regeneration, 1st incarnation, 1st doctor (cycle 1)
Patrick troughton: 1st regeneration, 2nd incarnation, 2nd doctor (cycle 1)
Jon Pertwee: 2nd regeneration, 3rd incarnation, 3rd doctor (cycle 1)
Tom baker: 3rd regeneration, 4th incarnation, 4th doctor (cycle 1)
Peter Davison: 4th regeneration, 5th incarnation, 5th doctor (cycle 1)
Colin Baker: 5th regeneration, 6th incarnation, 6th doctor (cycle 1)
Sylvestor McCoy: 6th regeneration, 7th incarnation, 7th doctor (cycle 1)
Paul McGann: 7th regeneration, 8th incarnation, 8th doctor (cycle 1)
John Hurt: 8th regeneration, 9th incarnation, war doctor (cycle 1)
Christopher Eccleston: 9th regeneration, 10th incarnation, 9th doctor (cycle 1)
David Tennant: 10th and 11th regeneration, 11th incarnation, 10th doctor (cycle 1)
Matt Smith: 12th regeneration, 12th incarnation, 11th doctor (cycle 1)
Peter Capaldi: 13th regeneration, 13th incarnation, 12th doctor (cycle 2)

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Why would it be impossible for the Meta-Crisis Doctor to turn/become the Valeyard? The amalgamation thing would best fit that regeneration, after all, since he's not part of the "main" Doctor line, but an offshoot of him "born" out of his cut hand.

Is it because he's a human?

It's because the Valeyard was stated to be from "somewhere between" his "twelfth and final incarnations." The Meta-Crisis Doctor precedes his twelfth incarnation.