Is Daredevil Closer to a "costumed hero" or a "superhero"

[Alidar Jarok]

^ Oh, no. I wasn't saying that what makes a superhero is that he must be chosen by a higher power. I already gave my definition of superhero upthread, with the qualification that it's probably wrong, in my post that mentions je ne sais quoi.

All I was doing there was simply pointing out that (at least IMO) the power suit trope doesn't fully capture what GL in particular is all about. GL and IM are not precisely cut from the same mold is all I was saying.

I thought AJ was saying that the distinction between the two isn't important or interesting, to which I'd have to certainly disagree, as the distinction isn't stupid. Both are superheroes, similar in some ways, but subtly distinct in others.

It would be stupid to use traits like selected by a higher power as a yardstick for deciding superheroism, though. Apologies if I misunderstood.

Yeah, I think you misunderstood. I actually agreed with your argument that superheroes have a je ne sais quois that distinguishes them. My point was trying to distinguish two groups that have this je ne sais quois based on having superpowers or not and only calling the latter "costumed heroes" is an arbitrary and stupid distinction that is hard to apply once you start having to exclude Batman, Iron Man, Green Lantern, etc. from the list.

I think there's a big difference between Batman and Green Lantern. Just because GL's powers aren't "natural" or "inherent" and are instead a result of an external object doesn't mean that they aren't superpowers. Batman is a different story-while he's written ti often be able to do ridiculous things that aren't "realistic," he doesn't form giant boxing gloves with his mind or shoot energy beams from his hand or something like that.

It's no sillier a distinction than in any kind of genre, like between mythological creatures such as werewolves or vampires. Just because they're both fictional doesn't mean there's not a distinction.

Well, my point was a point of excluding technological advancements. Batman does have technological advancements, but say you think they aren't enough to make him a superhero. My next question was Iron Man. Is that just technology as well? It's a dumb line to draw that makes Batman not a superhero (or tries to grandfather him in while acknowledging a new character would not be one) but makes Iron Man one. To me, whether the powers are biological or technological or how significant those powers are is irrelevant to the question.

Batman's technology lets him do more than Daredevil can do, most likely (particularly if you're counting the thing in Dark Knight), but Daredevil has a literal superpower. To me, all these characters of superheroes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Would supernatural beings (like Spawn, Ghost Rider, or Blade) count as superheroes?

I think that Spawn, Ghost Rider, and Blade are superheroes, because of how they elect to use their powers, because of the causes they fight for and what costs they are willing to brave to do that.

 

[bbjeg]

^Another reason why I posed the question was because, in Spawn's case (and Constantine), he went to hell. Higher powers deemed him (them) hell worthy and Ghost Rider made a deal with the devil. Can someone like them be redeemed?

 

[sonak]

Yeah, I think you misunderstood. I actually agreed with your argument that superheroes have a je ne sais quois that distinguishes them. My point was trying to distinguish two groups that have this je ne sais quois based on having superpowers or not and only calling the latter "costumed heroes" is an arbitrary and stupid distinction that is hard to apply once you start having to exclude Batman, Iron Man, Green Lantern, etc. from the list.

I think there's a big difference between Batman and Green Lantern. Just because GL's powers aren't "natural" or "inherent" and are instead a result of an external object doesn't mean that they aren't superpowers. Batman is a different story-while he's written ti often be able to do ridiculous things that aren't "realistic," he doesn't form giant boxing gloves with his mind or shoot energy beams from his hand or something like that.

It's no sillier a distinction than in any kind of genre, like between mythological creatures such as werewolves or vampires. Just because they're both fictional doesn't mean there's not a distinction.

Well, my point was a point of excluding technological advancements. Batman does have technological advancements, but say you think they aren't enough to make him a superhero. My next question was Iron Man. Is that just technology as well? It's a dumb line to draw that makes Batman not a superhero (or tries to grandfather him in while acknowledging a new character would not be one) but makes Iron Man one. To me, whether the powers are biological or technological or how significant those powers are is irrelevant to the question.

Batman's technology lets him do more than Daredevil can do, most likely (particularly if you're counting the thing in Dark Knight), but Daredevil has a literal superpower. To me, all these characters of superheroes.

I think Iron Man's technological abilities are of a very different level than Batman's. Though there are exceptions in various stories, most of what he uses(apart from vehicles) are things like boomerangs, shurikens, grappling hooks, etc. Same for a character like Green Arrow-he uses regular and trick arrows, but that's about it.

And again, yeah Daredevil has, technically speaking, a "superpower," but it's really just an extra sense. It's not really a game-changing one that puts him much beyond Batman or Green Arrow, that's why I put him closer to those two than I do Wolverine or Spider-Man.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Can someone like them be redeemed?

I think the uncertain answer to that question is a part of what makes those stories interesting.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think there's a big difference between Batman and Green Lantern. Just because GL's powers aren't "natural" or "inherent" and are instead a result of an external object doesn't mean that they aren't superpowers. Batman is a different story-while he's written ti often be able to do ridiculous things that aren't "realistic," he doesn't form giant boxing gloves with his mind or shoot energy beams from his hand or something like that.

It's no sillier a distinction than in any kind of genre, like between mythological creatures such as werewolves or vampires. Just because they're both fictional doesn't mean there's not a distinction.

Well, my point was a point of excluding technological advancements. Batman does have technological advancements, but say you think they aren't enough to make him a superhero. My next question was Iron Man. Is that just technology as well? It's a dumb line to draw that makes Batman not a superhero (or tries to grandfather him in while acknowledging a new character would not be one) but makes Iron Man one. To me, whether the powers are biological or technological or how significant those powers are is irrelevant to the question.

Batman's technology lets him do more than Daredevil can do, most likely (particularly if you're counting the thing in Dark Knight), but Daredevil has a literal superpower. To me, all these characters of superheroes.

I think Iron Man's technological abilities are of a very different level than Batman's. Though there are exceptions in various stories, most of what he uses(apart from vehicles) are things like boomerangs, shurikens, grappling hooks, etc. Same for a character like Green Arrow-he uses regular and trick arrows, but that's about it.

And again, yeah Daredevil has, technically speaking, a "superpower," but it's really just an extra sense. It's not really a game-changing one that puts him much beyond Batman or Green Arrow, that's why I put him closer to those two than I do Wolverine or Spider-Man.

That's fine, but I'm not sure why that excludes someone from being a superhero.

 

[stj]

Here's a little list: Batman, Catwoman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Punisher, and for those who never quite understood what was super about super-soldier, Captain America. And I gather Superannuated Robin. Superheroes or no?

Here's another little list: Macgyver, the Mission: Impossible team, Napoleon Solo and Ilya Kuryakin, Mrs. Peel, James Bond, Tarzan, John Carter, Allan Quatermain, Robin Hood, Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Michael Westin from Burn Notice and, stretching the ethics a little, Omar Little from The Wire. Superheroes or no?

Welcome to make your own lists with your chosen headings.

 

[bbjeg]

Can someone like them be redeemed?

I think the uncertain answer to that question is a part of what makes those stories interesting.

That's a great way of thinking of it.

 

[bbjeg]

^(Meant to make these one post.)

Here's a little list: Batman, Catwoman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Punisher, and for those who never quite understood what was super about super-soldier, Captain America. And I gather Superannuated Robin. Superheroes or no?

Here's another little list: Macgyver, the Mission: Impossible team, Napoleon Solo and Ilya Kuryakin, Mrs. Peel, James Bond, Tarzan, John Carter, Allan Quatermain, Robin Hood, Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Michael Westin from Burn Notice and, stretching the ethics a little, Omar Little from There Wire. Superheroes or no?

Welcome to make your own lists with your chosen headings.

I say:
Batman, Green Arrow, and Captain America - Superheroes
Catwoman - Superspy
Hawkeye and Black Widow - Superassassins
Punisher - Supervigilante

The second list is comprised of heroes, masked heroes, spies, secret agents, and just plain tough SOBs though John Carter could make the switch.

 

[Christopher]

Catwoman - Superspy

Huh? When did that happen? Last I heard, she was a thief and occasional do-gooder.

 

[bbjeg]

^Haven't we seen her infiltrate high-end parties by going in as a guest as well as seeing her borderline espionage?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Industrial espionage, maybe. While some skill sets may overlap between thief and spy, one doesn't equate to the other.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, her main gig is stealing stuff and keeping it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nick Fury may not be a superhero but I would consider him a superspy or some kind of super title. He not only commands the most high tech weaponry and arsenals (some made by Tony), he has access to all information, all the supervillans items they contained from past battles, he has the Avengers (X-men and Fantastic 4 too) backing him up, and battled alien invaders (though I think S.W.O.R.D. took that over). He may have starred in war comics and espionage comics, but he came a long way. He not your average Colonel. Supercolonel maybe?

Yeah he's a superspy. Just like James Bond. Fury's transformation from WWII commando to superspy is a direct result of the success of the James Bond films. He fought evil organizations and madmen, like Bond. Being in a shared universe means he get to rub shoulders with superheroes but he didn't normally fight aliens and super-villains in his own adventures.

^(Meant to make these one post.)

Here's a little list: Batman, Catwoman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Punisher, and for those who never quite understood what was super about super-soldier, Captain America. And I gather Superannuated Robin. Superheroes or no?

Here's another little list: Macgyver, the Mission: Impossible team, Napoleon Solo and Ilya Kuryakin, Mrs. Peel, James Bond, Tarzan, John Carter, Allan Quatermain, Robin Hood, Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Michael Westin from Burn Notice and, stretching the ethics a little, Omar Little from There Wire. Superheroes or no?

Welcome to make your own lists with your chosen headings.

I say:
Batman, Green Arrow, and Captain America - Superheroes
Catwoman - Superspy
Hawkeye and Black Widow - Superassassins
Punisher - Supervigilante

The second list is comprised of heroes, masked heroes, spies, secret agents, and just plain tough SOBs though John Carter could make the switch.

Hawkeye isn't an assassin in the comic. He's an ex-carnival archer who became the dupe of a spy (Black Widow) and later became a superhero.

Black Widow was a superspy. (for the Russians) and a super-villain Then became a super-hero.

Would supernatural beings (like Spawn, Ghost Rider, or Blade) count as superheroes, or just supernatural beings?

They can be both. Super-heroes are many things. Some are aliens (Superman, Mar-Vell), some are enhanced humans (X-Men, Flash), some are supernatural (Dr Strange, the Spectre), some are mythological (Thor, Wonder Woman) some are technological (Iron Man, Green Lantern) and some are humans with advanced fighting skills.(Batman, Captain America) There's no one way to be a "super-hero".

 

[Christopher]

^Haven't we seen her infiltrate high-end parties by going in as a guest as well as seeing her borderline espionage?

That's not espionage, that's casing a joint.

 

[bbjeg]

Nick Fury may not be a superhero but I would consider him a superspy or some kind of super title. He not only commands the most high tech weaponry and arsenals (some made by Tony), he has access to all information, all the supervillans items they contained from past battles, he has the Avengers (X-men and Fantastic 4 too) backing him up, and battled alien invaders (though I think S.W.O.R.D. took that over). He may have starred in war comics and espionage comics, but he came a long way. He not your average Colonel. Supercolonel maybe?

Yeah he's a superspy. Just like James Bond. Fury's transformation from WWII commando to superspy is a direct result of the success of the James Bond films. He fought evil organizations and madmen, like Bond. Being in a shared universe means he get to rub shoulders with superheroes but he didn't normally fight aliens and super-villains in his own adventures.

I'm not sure why Fury can never break the superhero barrier. He may not have normally fought aliens and super-villains in his adventurers but he's done a lot since then and his focus and deeds back him up. Does Batman counts as a superhero because he started sooner?

I say:
Batman, Green Arrow, and Captain America - Superheroes
Catwoman - Superspy
Hawkeye and Black Widow - Superassassins
Punisher - Supervigilante

The second list is comprised of heroes, masked heroes, spies, secret agents, and just plain tough SOBs though John Carter could make the switch.

Hawkeye isn't an assassin in the comic. He's an ex-carnival archer who became the dupe of a spy (Black Widow) and later became a superhero.

Black Widow was a superspy. (for the Russians) and a super-villain Then became a super-hero.

I based Hawkeye on his Ultimates story line. I don't think they carried his origin over from previous versions, or at least I don't think they covered it yet.

I agree with the rest of your post though, if Norse gods count as superheroes, so do supernatural beings.

 

[Christopher]

^As I've been saying all along, you cannot break the definition of "superhero" down to a single yes/no attribute. It's a gestalt thing. A given attribute may be part of the combination of ingredients that makes one character a superhero, but that doesn't mean that any other character who has that single attribute is also a superhero, because it's just one piece of the puzzle. Just because a chocolate cake has flour in it, that doesn't mean that everything with flour in it is a chocolate cake.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm not sure why Fury can never break the superhero barrier. He may not have normally fought aliens and super-villains in his adventurers but he's done a lot since then and his focus and deeds back him up. Does Batman counts as a superhero because he started sooner?

Because it's not who he is. He's a spy. That's who he is and the role he plays in the Marvel Universe. When he fights aliens and super-villains he's doing it as a spy and an operative of an espionage organization. Batman counts because he was one of the first super-heroes and help set the standards for the genre.

I'm a 616 guy. The Ultimates are just knockoffs.

 

[Christopher]

Because it's not who he is. He's a spy. That's who he is and the role he plays in the Marvel Universe. When he fights aliens and super-villains he's doing it as a spy and an operative of an espionage organization. Batman counts because he was one of the first super-heroes and help set the standards for the genre.

Right. Not every hero in a superhero comic is a superhero. Batman couldn't do what he does without Alfred and Commissioner Gordon, but they aren't superheroes. They're parts of his support network. And SHIELD is generally part of the support network for Marvel's superhero community -- although sometimes it's an antagonist to them as well.

 

[bbjeg]

Just so we are on the same page, who in the comic book world counts as a costumed hero and not a superhero?