Angst-Ridden Dating Rant #17

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

An example: Six or seven years ago, I was sitting in a Starbucks with a girl I had had a crush on in high school. She had tracked me down hoping I was still interested in her, which I thought was awesome. About half an hour after we had arrived, this other guy that was interested in her shows up. He moves a chair over and places it with the back toward me, which was really awkward because of how close to her I was sitting. After a few minutes she points out that she's on a date and would prefer to talk to this guy later. He turns around briefly, says "oh, sorry, I didn't see you there." He turns back to her and asks "is this that gay friend you were telling me about?" He then suggests that her and I say goodbye while he gets a coffee and then that her and him should sit and talk more. She suggests that they meet on another day, he gives up and leaves.

I mostly found him to be a minor irritation, but he was clearly trying to provoke me. Questioning my sexuality is pretty high on my list of "things I don't give a shit about," but that isn't true of a lot of men. After he left I commented "well, that was odd." and got on with my evening. I called her two or three days later to set up another date, and she was with this guy at the time. After finding out it was me on the phone, I distinctly heard him say "hang up or I'm going to kill that motherfucker." So, I said I'd call her back later. After I got off the phone I was thinking this guy definitely made an ass out of himself, and he'd go away shortly if I ignored him. What happened instead is that they were together for three years and had a kid together. At the time I was thinking I screwed up somehow, but now I realize that she screwed up by not telling that guy to fuck off.

She didn't "screw up", she made a choice that was not you. You may think this was a bad choice but it was hers to make. If she was still interested in you she would have kept seeing you and not started seeing someone else, it's as simple as that.

One thing that strikes me is you seem to talk about women as though they can be manipulated and tweaked into making relationship choices, as though it's you versus other guys and the women are the chess pieces and you are trying to decide what your next move and counter move with the other guys should be.

You can't actually tweak a situation in such a way that it produces your desired outcome. Women make their own decisions.

 

[Melakon]

As strange as it may sound, I don't think the problem is overanalyzing things. It sounds more like you're over rationalizing reasons why you shouldn't take a step toward asking this current girl out.

Honestly, reading your reply to Robert Maxwell began reminding me of Woody Allen's early career as a neurotic standup comic, only his material's better.

 

[JarodRussell]

I also once thought I needed to “help“ the girls I liked. And by that I mean trying to talk them into making decisions that I liked.

But the fact is that all you can do - the only right thing you can do - is telling the truth, and that's it. For example, if her boyfriend threatened you when she wasn't around, just tell her that. And THAT'S IT. Don't scheme, don't persuade, don't lie. Tell her ONCE and move on. Respect her decisions.

In the case you described above, you could have asked her if she really thought that he was the right guy for her. Once. And if she needed help that you'd be around. Again, say that once and then move on. If she agrees with you, that's all you needed to say. If she doesn't agree, then persuasion won't make any difference.


My advice for you would be:
- stop using Facebook and other social media that much
- stop making up these conspiracy stories. Take things for what they are: plain and simple
- learn to tackle things in a direcf fashion: either ask someone out or move on, for example

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Your example aside, I'm not convinced that these guys pretend to not notice you. It is possible that they actually don't notice you. The guy you started this thread about, for instance, probably has no idea you exist, but it was all about him asserting his dominance in the face of a potential rival.

I've noticed that trying to get back together with a recent ex is often indicative of possessiveness. There are other reasons for it, but it is a big one. I thought it was possibly aimed at me mostly on instinct. He seems like the type that reads everything she posts, including all the flirty comments I've left and, as far as I know, no one else is leaving flirty comments on her stuff. This is far from conclusive evidence, but seems to be enough to be suspicious.

Yes, but again: this is not your problem to solve. It only involves you if and when you are in a relationship with this woman and it is affecting that relationship somehow. Unless and until that happens, there is little point wasting brainpower on it.

As for other times, I'm basing it on how many times men have blatantly made a point of ignoring me or subtly confronting me. When I'm talking to someone in person and sitting or standing reasonably close, and then another person moves between us and then positions them self with their back toward me, and then later claims they didn't see me or doesn't acknowledge me at all, it's pretty clear what they were doing. It's pretty easy to notice when someone is talking to someone else that is standing less than two feet away, especially when that person steps between them. As far as online, a few years ago a girl I was involved with posted a picture on MySpace or Facebook or something, and I commented that her eyes looked particularly vibrant. The next comment was from another guy that was interested in her that said: "Nice pic. I hate to be so crass as to compliment your eyes, but they're very pretty." This kind of thing.

I'm seeing two possibilities here:

1. Something about you causes this reaction, and perhaps you should figure out what it is and change it.
2. This isn't really happening the way you think it is, in which case something is flawed in your thinking.

I agree completely. I try to be optimistic about the future while being mindful of the past. Occasionally I'm a little too mindful of the past, but things usually turn out okay if I catch myself doing it before making too much of an ass out of myself.

Given the way you've described your love life in this thread, I am not sure what sort of measure you are using for "turn out okay."

It's possible you jumped to conclusions based on basically nothing.

Basically nothing isn't the same as absolutely nothing, but I see your point. I think part of why I started this thread is because I don't trust my own judgment and needed to be told this.

I agree that your judgment needs work. Bouncing it off of people here is fine, but if that's what you're after, don't get so defensive when people respond!

Yes, you have options. You can talk to her about it. She is the one you're (hypothetically) in a relationship with, not him. As long as you are reasonable, not controlling or manipulative, and you express that this person is interfering with your relationship, she should be willing to do something about it--either talking to the guy or telling him to get out of her life. That doesn't mean it will work. It obviously depends on the behavior of other people and their willingness to alter it. I would say that if she is unwilling or unable to put a stop to this guy's antics, then yes, it is probably a good idea to walk away.

I have a tendency to believe that, when things don't go the way I'd like, that I am completely responsible; that any conflict or unfortunate circumstances involving me happened because I fucked up somehow. There's a lot to why I have this outlook, but simply put: I was raised Catholic. Logically I realize I'm not responsible for everything, but realizing it emotionally is different and much more difficult. This probably has a lot to do with why I reacted badly to the hostile posts.

Okay, but here again you are giving us reasons why you act the way you do. Are they there for us to excuse your behavior and attitude, or are they there so you can justify it to yourself? You seem to have acknowledged that you need to change. How are you going to do it?

I think the problem for most of us here has been that you're already trying to figure out how to deal with him when you haven't even asked this girl out. You're not just putting the cart before the horse, you're putting it on another planet.

Yes, but I do not think this is a bad thing. I contemplate worst-case scenarios about pretty much everything. When I leave for school in the morning I think about getting into car accidents or getting mugged, sitting in class I think about another student pulling out a gun and shooting people. If I get pulled over for speeding on my way home I think about the cop planting drugs on me and then demanding a bribe to let me go. Why do I do this? On the rare occasion that something bad does happen, I'm better prepared for it and I tend not to panic. Some of you may remember a thread I made a few years ago in which I witnessed a motorcycle accident, I stopped, and took control of the situation until the police and paramedics arrived. I was able to do that because I idly think about things like that. Everyone else was panicking, whereas I had a basic plan ready to go. Because I worry about not being prepared and try to account of it, there have only been two or three times in my life when I've been in situations where I panicked, and even then it was pretty mild.

Preparedness is not a bad thing, but the extent to which you obsess over it is. It is entirely possible to be prepared for various emergency situations without fretting about them constantly. I also think it's a bit silly to compare emergency situations like car accidents to how you approach a woman about her ex. There's an order of magnitude (or two) between those scenarios, yet you're spending a lot of time and energy on the less important one.

Do you go to therapy or anything? I'm not asking as a joke. Your attitude sounds quite obsessive/compulsive and it may benefit from professional attention. It's at least worth investigating, if you haven't already. I am not a psychiatrist, after all.

ETA: Also, listen to what teacake said and stop thinking of this as a game in which you have to "beat" another guy to "win" the girl. It's skeevy.

 

[Kommander]

She didn't "screw up", she made a choice that was not you. You may think this was a bad choice but it was hers to make. If she was still interested in you she would have kept seeing you and not started seeing someone else, it's as simple as that.

One thing that strikes me is you seem to talk about women as though they can be manipulated and tweaked into making relationship choices, as though it's you versus other guys and the women are the chess pieces and you are trying to decide what your next move and counter move with the other guys should be.

You can't actually tweak a situation in such a way that it produces your desired outcome. Women make their own decisions.

I didn't say she screwed up because she dated this other guy instead of me, I say she screwed up because she dated the guy in itself, and because she told me she screwed up. She pretty much hates the guy now, and still has to deal with him because he's the father of her oldest kid.

Had she continued dating me instead of this other guy, that probably would have been screwing up as well. Her and I weren't romantically compatible. I'd like to think it wouldn't have been as big of a screw up, but there's no way to know that because it didn't happen. As it is, she just got married to the guy she started dating after breaking up with the guy she had her first kid with and, while I have not met him yet, he seems like a decent guy and I like him based on what little I know about him. I'm focusing on the men I don't like because of the context of the thread, but most of the women I know that are in relationships are with men and women that I find to be decent people and very likable.

Would you people please stop interpreting everything I say in the worst way possible?

As strange as it may sound, I don't think the problem is overanalyzing things. It sounds more like you're over rationalizing reasons why you shouldn't take a step toward asking this current girl out.

You mean like how at the barest hint that I may be repeating past mistakes and haven't learned anything I make a bigger deal out of it than is reasonable, giving me a reason to hesitate and probably eventually backing off while patting myself on the back for successfully avoiding a mistake instead of trying to date this girl and opening the possibility of actually making the same mistake again? I think this is very likely.

I also once thought I needed to “help“ the girls I liked. And by that I mean trying to talk them into making decisions that I liked.

As did I. Did you miss the part where I said "in the past" and that that implies that I realize now that it was wrong? That being said, I agree with the rest of your post, except for the parts that imply that I don't already realize this.

Yes, but again: this is not your problem to solve. It only involves you if and when you are in a relationship with this woman and it is affecting that relationship somehow. Unless and until that happens, there is little point wasting brainpower on it.

It only involves me if it is causing her stress and I notice that it is causing her stress. But yes, it is not my problem, and I'm not trying to make decisions for her, despite everyone assuming that I am for some reason.

I'm seeing two possibilities here:

1. Something about you causes this reaction, and perhaps you should figure out what it is and change it.
2. This isn't really happening the way you think it is, in which case something is flawed in your thinking.

3. They're ass holes and should be dismissed as such. This kind of thing happens more than seems reasonable, but still not very often. I also have had a tendency to give ass holes more attention than is reasonable, so it kind of makes sense.

Do you go to therapy or anything? I'm not asking as a joke.

Good. If you were, I would dismiss anything you have to say. Mental disorders are legitimate medical conditions and making fun of those that have them or seek treatment is just as stupid as making fun of someone for having a heart attack or going to the hospital after having one.

Your attitude sounds quite obsessive/compulsive and it may benefit from professional attention. It's at least worth investigating, if you haven't already. I am not a psychiatrist, after all.

Possibly. Although, I have a very high IQ (I'm not telling anyone what it is). I process information very quickly and am hyper-observant. What looks to be obsessive behavior in me is actually pretty effortless and doesn't cause me much if any undue stress. However, it is up to a psychologist to determine if it constitutes primarily obsessive OCD or if there is another problem.

I am a psychology student, and I do not view therapy negatively. However, I do not have medical insurance and, even if I did, there's a good chance this kind of thing wouldn't be covered because, unfortunately, mental health care is often considered a luxury by the idiots that run things, and I cannot otherwise afford therapy at this time. If I get into the Ph.D. program I want, the medical coverage I get will cover it, and the university I'm transferring to next year may have something available that I can manage. Whether or not OCD is an issue with me, I definitely have issues with depression that need to be treated.

ETA: Also, listen to what teacake said and stop thinking of this as a game in which you have to "beat" another guy to "win" the girl. It's skeevy.

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread" again. I do not think of it as a game. The closest I have ever come to thinking of it as a game is the perception that everyone else thinks of it as a game and, if I wanted successful relationships, I had to start thinking of it as a game because "that's just the way the world works." I tried to think of it as a game, but that ultimately didn't work because there is no one way the world works, and seeing it as a game is pretty stupid. Some of this may have shown through when I was talking about the past, but it is not part of my current outlook.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

3. They're ass holes and should be dismissed as such. This kind of thing happens more than seems reasonable, but still not very often. I also have had a tendency to give ass holes more attention than is reasonable, so it kind of makes sense.

That makes it sound like you enable them.

Good. If you were, I would dismiss anything you have to say. Mental disorders are legitimate medical conditions and making fun of those that have them or seek treatment is just as stupid as making fun of someone for having a heart attack or going to the hospital after having one.

I take mental health seriously. It's not a laughing matter.

Your attitude sounds quite obsessive/compulsive and it may benefit from professional attention. It's at least worth investigating, if you haven't already. I am not a psychiatrist, after all.

Possibly. Although, I have a very high IQ (I'm not telling anyone what it is). I process information very quickly and am hyper-observant. What looks to be obsessive behavior in me is actually pretty effortless and doesn't cause me much if any undue stress. However, it is up to a psychologist to determine if it constitutes primarily obsessive OCD or if there is another problem.

A high IQ doesn't mean you're any good at dealing with people. Often, it means the exact opposite.

I am a psychology student, and I do not view therapy negatively. However, I do not have medical insurance and, even if I did, there's a good chance this kind of thing wouldn't be covered because, unfortunately, mental health care is often considered a luxury by the idiots that run things, and I cannot otherwise afford therapy at this time. If I get into the Ph.D. program I want, the medical coverage I get will cover it, and the university I'm transferring to next year may have something available that I can manage. Whether or not OCD is an issue with me, I definitely have issues with depression that need to be treated.

I guess you haven't kept up with current laws, then. Insurance plans being sold from now on must have mental health coverage. Although, if I recall correctly, you should qualify for Medicaid but live in a state that refused to implement the expansion, so, uh... yeah. I wish I could help you more there.

ETA: Also, listen to what teacake said and stop thinking of this as a game in which you have to "beat" another guy to "win" the girl. It's skeevy.

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread" again. I do not think of it as a game. The closest I have ever come to thinking of it as a game is the perception that everyone else thinks of it as a game and, if I wanted successful relationships, I had to start thinking of it as a game because "that's just the way the world works." I tried to think of it as a game, but that ultimately didn't work because there is no one way the world works, and seeing it as a game is pretty stupid. Some of this may have shown through when I was talking about the past, but it is not part of my current outlook.

People are seeing you this way because the way you approach the whole situation looks highly adversarial and competitive, i.e. a game. I think you've spent more time talking about assholes in this thread than the actual women you are/were interested in.

 

[Kommander]

That makes it sound like you enable them.

Possibly. My usual approach to ass holes isn't to dismiss them as such, but to try to understand why they are being an ass hole. That, and my tendency to believe that, if someone is being an ass hole, it means that I did something wrong when in reality, it's probably just that they're an ass hole.

I take mental health seriously. It's not a laughing matter.

I wish more people shared this attitude.

A high IQ doesn't mean you're any good at dealing with people. Often, it means the exact opposite.

I am very aware of this. My brain works differently than that of most people, and that does make it difficult to understand others. A lot of people like to brag about having a high IQ. While there are some benefits, it's more of a personality disorder than anything else, and really not something to brag about. I've noticed that relating to other people is easier when I'm drinking; my brain starts to work more similarly to other people's, especially if they are also drinking. However, using alcohol to fix problems is not a path I want to start traveling, so I need another option.

I guess you haven't kept up with current laws, then. Insurance plans being sold from now on must have mental health coverage.

No, I wasn't aware of this. Good news is always welcome.

Although, if I recall correctly, you should qualify for Medicaid but live in a state that refused to implement the expansion, so, uh... yeah. I wish I could help you more there.

I don't know for sure that Medicaid has not been expanded, but considering I live in Michigan and Rick "the Dick" Snyder is governor, I'd be very surprised if it was. Anyway, the worst case scenerio is that I'll have to take out more in student loans to pay for a plan provided by the university. More loans aren't a big deal.

People are seeing you this way because the way you approach the whole situation looks highly adversarial and competitive, i.e. a game. I think you've spent more time talking about assholes in this thread than the actual women you are/were interested in.

I'm complaining about people who are adversarial and competitive about such things, therefore I must be one of them? That conclusion doesn't make any sense to me. Something along the lines of "you probably see this sort of behavior frequently because you try to date women that find it appealing. Maybe try dating different women, ya dumb ass?" That seems like its just as likely. But no, the correct conclusion has to be the one in which I'm the biggest ass hole.

 

[Use of Time]

Kommander why don't we table all of this jealous boyfriend stuff for the moment and just start from the top. Do you wish to pursue a relationship with this woman as of November 15, 2013? If so, do you think you are prepared to ask her out in some capacity, even if it is just spending time together as friends. If you are unprepared to flat out ask her on a date, simply spending time together in any capacity can give you subtle indicators of her level of interest, which if I'm being honest, is the biggest unknown component in this thread. I know that given your past issues with relationships it will be difficult to avoid anticipating problems before they occur, but try to treat this situation independently if at all possible. I guess what I'm asking at this point is, do you have any plans to move forward here or have you already declared this relationship out of reach?

 

[Melakon]

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread" again.

I wasn't even aware you had done previous threads on a similar kind of topic. All my reactions are based on how you're appearing in this thread, which started on 4 November, and you're still trying to decide whether to ask this woman out. Either you will, or you won't, but it seems like you're determined to talk yourself out of it.

 

[Timby]

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread"

I don't think you're being stereotyped. I think people are reacting the way they are because you're coming off as very adversarial, and every time someone brings up anything even remotely resembling a cogent point (to say nothing of the folks like RobMax and Melakon and MrAwe who have been consistently hitting the nail on the head), you act as though you have to have an answer for it. You can't just sit back and say, "You know what, you're right;" you act as though you need to battle back and say "but there's this, that and the other." Example: You randomly bringing up your IQ out of nowhere, which isn't germane at all to the conversation except to give yourself an excuse to say, "See, I have an explanation for acting this way."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're coming across as the person who's in a room with 20 other people, and thinks he's the only sane person and everyone else is an asshole.

 

[Kestra]

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread"

I don't think you're being stereotyped. I think people are reacting the way they are because you're coming off as very adversarial, and every time someone brings up anything even remotely resembling a cogent point (to say nothing of the folks like RobMax and Melakon and MrAwe who have been consistently hitting the nail on the head), you act as though you have to have an answer for it. You can't just sit back and say, "You know what, you're right;" you act as though you need to battle back and say "but there's this, that and the other." Example: You randomly bringing up your IQ out of nowhere, which isn't germane at all to the conversation except to give yourself an excuse to say, "See, I have an explanation for acting this way."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're coming across as the person who's in a room with 20 other people, and thinks he's the only sane person and everyone else is an asshole.

This sums up my take on the thread as well. Good post, Timby.

 

[Kommander]

Kommander why don't we table all of this jealous boyfriend stuff for the moment and just start from the top. Do you wish to pursue a relationship with this woman as of November 15, 2013? If so, do you think you are prepared to ask her out in some capacity, even if it is just spending time together as friends. If you are unprepared to flat out ask her on a date, simply spending time together in any capacity can give you subtle indicators of her level of interest, which if I'm being honest, is the biggest unknown component in this thread. I know that given your past issues with relationships it will be difficult to avoid anticipating problems before they occur, but try to treat this situation independently if at all possible. I guess what I'm asking at this point is, do you have any plans to move forward here or have you already declared this relationship out of reach?

No idea, I'll see what happens.

I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread" again.

I wasn't even aware you had done previous threads on a similar kind of topic. All my reactions are based on how you're appearing in this thread, which started on 4 November, and you're still trying to decide whether to ask this woman out. Either you will, or you won't, but it seems like you're determined to talk yourself out of it.

I was referring to threads like this in general, not just ones I've started. And yes, the core of the issue seems to be that I'm trying to talk myself out of asking this woman out. I really don't have the slightest idea why. I probably picked up on something that indicated that dating her would be a bad idea, or I'm just afraid of repeating the past. That's probably why I jumped on the possessive ex idea once it occurred to me. It gave me a scapegoat to explain my misgivings without it reflecting negatively on her or on me. I can't really pin down what it is specifically at this point. The best thing for me to do at this point is to continue talking to her without trying to push things in a romantic direction and just see what happens. Either I'll realize what was wrong and then decide whether it means I should back away or not, or I'll realize that nothing is wrong and there wont be a problem.

I don't think you're being stereotyped. I think people are reacting the way they are because you're coming off as very adversarial, and every time someone brings up anything even remotely resembling a cogent point, you act as though you have to have an answer for it.

Everyone who is not me has the information I've provided in this thread, and possibly other posts I've made. I, being me, have much more information. If someone says something that seems plausible based on the available information, but I believe to be not entirely accurate, I provide more information. Not to imply that I think they're wrong, but hoping they'll reevaluate what they said and take the new information into account. You see this as argumentative and just dismiss it because 1) you expect it from someone starting these kinds of threads (i.e.: stereotyping), which has nothing to do with me, and 2) the hostile, ridiculous tone I used when writing the OP, which is definitely my doing, and the reaction is understandable. This is not simply a case of everyone else is completely right and I'm completely wrong, that never happens. I have admitted to being wrong about some things and, from what I can tell, I'm the only one that's taken new information into account and reevaluated my position. When someone argues with me while being uncompromising and condescending, they're going to have a difficult time trying to convince me of anything. Most people don't respond well to that kind of tone, why should I be any different?

You can't just sit back and say, "You know what, you're right;"

Yeah, except for all those times I did. Like, when everyone said I was over-reacting to the pictures the ex posted and I said they were right. Or when a few people identified the core issue as my hesitation with this particular woman, or that the OP was a poorly-executed clusterfuck... You're the one who is being uncompromising, not me.

Example: You randomly bringing up your IQ out of nowhere, which isn't germane at all to the conversation except to give yourself an excuse to say, "See, I have an explanation for acting this way."

How is explaining myself an excuse? Of course there are reasons why I do the things I do. I'm trying to be better understood, I'm not demanding permission.

As for the IQ thing, it's a perfectly legitimate explanation for my tendency to over-analyze and apparent obsessive behavior. For someone with a closer to average IQ, the amount of analyzing I do would take a lot of time and effort, and one would have to be obsessive to accomplish it. When I do it, it doesn't take a lot of time, and the only real effort is typing all this shit. Everything I've said in this entire thread is the result of maybe 20 minutes of thought and analysis. Not only is it relevant, it's probably the most relevant thing I've said in this thread.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're coming across as the person who's in a room with 20 other people, and thinks he's the only sane person and everyone else is an asshole.

I never said anyone posting in this thread is an ass hole, or even really thought it. However, that isn't nearly as ridiculous a situation as you made it out to be. I've been the most sane person in a room with 20 others a bunch of times, they're called "family reunions."

 

[Melakon]

All you can do is ask her out. It's up to her to say yes or no. If she declines, well at least you tried, so don't do anything to look like you're begging. But putting yourself through this emotional turmoil isn't healthy (I say this as a stroke survivor).

Even if she says no, there's no reason why you can't still be friends. Some people reconnect with people they knew after decades of separation and start all over again. Just keep your options open, and don't look at it as a door slamming permanently in your face unless she so indicates.

On the other hand, don't blow your chance if she winds up asking you out instead.

And maybe try to avoid busy places like Starbucks.

 

[Use of Time]

I'm trying to figure out what the endgame of this thread is supposed to be. I mean at one point Locutus shut it down because it wasn't really going anywhere. Kommander asked him to open it back up but that only served to rehash the same points of view. Kommander you are giving some pretty flippant answers to legitimate questions almost like you don't want to discuss this anymore. Why did you even bother to ask Locutus to open it back up again if we are just going to keep going in circles trying to figure out what you should do. What exactly is it you want from us?

Good luck to you and I hope you can find some happiness through all of this. God knows you aren't the first person to have conflicted thoughts about a potential significant other.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

Why did you even bother to ask Locutus to open it back up again if we are just going to keep going in circles [...] ?

Because he's one of those people who always need to have the final say (literally).

 

[An Officer]

Sometimes maybe people just need to talk, without a conclusion... sort of unload and find relief through sharing.

I doubt Kommander will make a thread like this again, some of the responses were quite harsh and unforgiving... it's unfortunate we get so many of these type of threads that never seem to have a conclusion, it's desensitized many of us to this sort of plight!

 

[Mr Awe]

The moral of this kind of thread is to just ask the girl out! If she says "yes", have a nice time. If not, move on!

It's really not any more complicated than that but Kommander seems to have an entire extra layer drama that is happening, at least in his head. I don't mean that as an insult at all, but hopefully he recognizes it as something to sort out.

Mr Awe

 

[rhubarbodendron]

I basically agree, An Officer, but I'd like to point out that the harsh tone was on both sides. I am not sure if you have a similar proverb but in my country we have one that fits this situation perfectly: The way you shout into a forrest the echo will come back.

 

[Kommander]

I'm trying to figure out what the endgame of this thread is supposed to be. I mean at one point Locutus shut it down because it wasn't really going anywhere. Kommander asked him to open it back up but that only served to rehash the same points of view. Kommander you are giving some pretty flippant answers to legitimate questions almost like you don't want to discuss this anymore. Why did you even bother to ask Locutus to open it back up again if we are just going to keep going in circles trying to figure out what you should do. What exactly is it you want from us?

Good luck to you and I hope you can find some happiness through all of this. God knows you aren't the first person to have conflicted thoughts about a potential significant other.

There really is no endgame, other than me saying "thanks for the input everyone, I'll take it into varying degrees of consideration." There was never another possible outcome. Eventually, people will stop providing input, and the thread will slip onto the second page, never to be seen again.

Locutus locked the thread because it looked like I had lost interest in it, but others were still attacking me. I had been reading it, I just didn't have time to reply for a few days there. I did intend to reply, so the reason for locking it became invalid. There was the caveat that further conversation would be hopefully more productive, but I'm not in complete control of that.

Sometimes maybe people just need to talk, without a conclusion... sort of unload and find relief through sharing.

Yes. Could part of the problem here be that others were expecting a conclusion? That honestly never occurred to me; I was just looking for input.

I doubt Kommander will make a thread like this again,

I'll definitely think twice about it, but I'm kind of bad about predicting my future actions. I can mostly see why this thread turned out the way it did, but the other two threads I will always see the hostility as completely out of line. The other threads came across as "this isn't something I would do, therefore you are wrong." The situations behind those threads didn't turn out in ways that I liked, but nothing I did made them worse or really changed the outcome at all. Same thing with this thread, really. The only difference is that I have a lot of potential to screw things up on my own here. Hopefully I won't.

some of the responses were quite harsh and unforgiving... it's unfortunate we get so many of these type of threads that never seem to have a conclusion, it's desensitized many of us to this sort of plight!

I've been in TNZ quite a bit. Nothing I can't handle.

The moral of this kind of thread is to just ask the girl out! If she says "yes", have a nice time. If not, move on!

I thought like this in my early 20s. The result was I asked a lot of women out, I went on a lot of first dates, and things fizzled out before a second date. That approach to dating works for a lot of people, but it doesn't work for me. The women I've been involved with beyond a first date I did not meet in the context of pursuing a romantic relationship, and the romantic interest developed little by little.

So, I discovered what does work for me to some extent. The problem is, letting it happen on it's own doesn't work all the time. Mostly letting it happen on its own while occasionally giving things a little push seems like it would work a little better. Figuring out when to give a little push and occasionally a big push is difficult, and what is giving me pause right now.

Saying "just ask her out" to someone who has not tried that approach is probably good advice, and has worked for a lot of people, which is why so many are quick to suggest it. For me, however, if the first date doesn't come about organically, it's probably not going to work.

It's really not any more complicated than that but Kommander seems to have an entire extra layer drama that is happening, at least in his head. I don't mean that as an insult at all, but hopefully he recognizes it as something to sort out.

Ok, here's why being simple about things doesn't work for me. There is a social template for dating, a way that people are expected to act. Part of this is that people are typically on their best behavior. If I'm dating someone and they stick to the social template, it prevents me from getting to know who they really are. It also causes them to appear to be dishonest and that kills any attraction I have for them. On the other hand, when I go for baseline behavior rather than my best, it can come off as "if this is his best behavior, what's he like normally?" or like I just have no capacity to self-monitor; that I'm not aware that my behavior is different from what's expected rather than it being a conscious choice. If I can remove the dating context and just spend time with someone, none of this happens. I'm free to be myself, she is free to be herself, and we can actually get to know each other. The problem is, removing the dating context is extraordinarily difficult. I need to figure it out, or try something else entirely, as I already know just doing what everyone else does doesn't work for me.

I basically agree, An Officer, but I'd like to point out that the harsh tone was on both sides. I am not sure if you have a similar proverb but in my country we have one that fits this situation perfectly: The way you shout into a forrest the echo will come back.

You know what? You're right. (Hey look Timby, I've shown personal growth. )

 

[rhubarbodendron]

LOL you're just trying to flatter an oldtimer who has friends in the BR and the Admirals' Lounge
Keep growing!
(Why do I have the feeling that while this was grammatically correct it's not 100% ladylike..)