Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?
- Thread starter Praetor
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Y'know, in hindsight that "channeling power from the warp engines" makes me wonder - just where did the power come from in TOS?
I suppose maybe in the refit it was directly from the warp engines, whereas in TOS it would have made its way through the power distribution system and gradually maybe waste some energy along the way?
I suppose maybe in the refit it was directly from the warp engines, whereas in TOS it would have made its way through the power distribution system and gradually maybe waste some energy along the way?
^Well, the warp reactor powered the actual warp drive. Other ship power probably came from fusion reactors.
Well, I don't know for sure. That seems to be the way they do it in TNG -- we know the impulse drive is fusion-powered -- but I don't know what the intent was in TOS.
I mean, I don't think TMP was saying that phaser power was coming from the warp engines for the first time -- what they said was that the new design "increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines." Channeling through is different from drawing from -- it implies that the mains are used as a booster rather than the original source. Or that the same power circuits are used for both, perhaps because they channel power more efficiently.
Now, the problematical thing is that the intermix chamber as shown in TMP has no visible connections to anything except the impulse engine and the warp nacelles -- plus whatever's at the bottom of the vertical shaft, which is evidently the matter and antimatter supplies. Other than that, it's just an unconnected tube. So where is this channeling of power taking place? I suppose it could be somewhere up in the saucer, since that's where the main phaser banks are, but what about the phasers on the engineering hull?
But the lack of connections does suggest that other ship systems -- like the deflector dish, say -- are powered independently.
I mean, I don't think TMP was saying that phaser power was coming from the warp engines for the first time -- what they said was that the new design "increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines." Channeling through is different from drawing from -- it implies that the mains are used as a booster rather than the original source. Or that the same power circuits are used for both, perhaps because they channel power more efficiently.
Now, the problematical thing is that the intermix chamber as shown in TMP has no visible connections to anything except the impulse engine and the warp nacelles -- plus whatever's at the bottom of the vertical shaft, which is evidently the matter and antimatter supplies. Other than that, it's just an unconnected tube. So where is this channeling of power taking place? I suppose it could be somewhere up in the saucer, since that's where the main phaser banks are, but what about the phasers on the engineering hull?
But the lack of connections does suggest that other ship systems -- like the deflector dish, say -- are powered independently.
According to the official TMP blueprints "the new design increases phaser power by channeling direct power from the warp-drive system."
I really don't know if this is much of a help, but it seems to suggest that like the "redesigned impulse engines" phaser power is drawn from the "linear inter-mix chamber" as well.
Bob
I really don't know if this is much of a help, but it seems to suggest that like the "redesigned impulse engines" phaser power is drawn from the "linear inter-mix chamber" as well.
Bob
I'm not aware that TNG officially established "Constitution Class" for the TOS Enterprise.
I've just compiled plenty of evidence in the "Enterprise-A" tech thread that we might be looking at a lot of confusion here.
Bob
From TNG's Relics:
(bottle and glass in hand, Scott walks carefully to the holodeck)
COMPUTER: Please enter programme.
SCOTT: The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship. Let me see it.
COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.
SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of
COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.
SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.
COMPUTER: Programme complete. Enter when ready.
[NCC1701 Bridge]
(Complete with sound effect, they did a great job of recreating it for us. The viewscreen has the ubiquitous orange planet on it. Scott goes to his old station and pours a drink.)
SCOTT: Here's to you, lads.
PICARD: I hope I'm not interrupting. I was just coming off duty and I wanted to see how you were doing.
SCOTT: Not at all, not at all. Have a drink with me, Captain.
PICARD: Thank you.
SCOTT: I don't know what it is, exactly, but I would be real careful. It's real
(Picard knocks it back in one)
PICARD: Aldebaran whiskey. Who do you think gave it to Guinan?
SCOTT: Ah.
PICARD: Constitution class.
SCOTT: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Enterprise?
SCOTT: I actually served on two. This was the first. She was also the first ship I ever served on as Chief Engineer. You know, I served aboard eleven ships. Freighters, cruisers, starships, but this is the only one I think of. The only one I miss.
According to the official TMP blueprints "the new design increases phaser power by channeling direct power from the warp-drive system."
I really don't know if this is much of a help, but it seems to suggest that like the "redesigned impulse engines" phaser power is drawn from the "linear inter-mix chamber" as well.
Bob
Don't forget the line from Star Trek II. After Reliant gets smacked around by the Enterprise, she has to withdraw and can't return fire. Why? Because "they damaged the photon controls, and the warp drive."
This bit of dialog meshes nicely with Decker's comment:
[FONT=Arial]DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channeling it through the main engines. When they went into anti-matter imbalance, the phasers were automatically cut off.[/FONT]
So, the power is increased by going through the main engines, and when warp drive is out, phasers cannot fire.
^Actually TNG established it as early as the second episode, "The Naked Now." When reviewing the events of the previous encounter with the virus in "The Naked Time," Picard read off the screen: "The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding."
You know, all this hoopla over whether the TOS “E” is “Enterprise” or “Constitution” class is easily reconciled. We know that “Constitution” was intended to be one of the 12 (or 13) ships “like the Enterprise” according to memos published in TMoST, yet we don’t officially know its registry number (do we)?
And it’s long been speculated by fans that the original pilot configuration represents the original specs (or close to it) for these ships, and that the regular production version of the TOS “E” represents a sub-class, traditionally these have been labeled “Constitution” and “Bonhomie Richards” classes.
But what if, as Bob suggests, The “E” was “the first bird” as intended by MJ, and therefore the class was (in universe) named “Enterprise” accordingly, but when the ships were uprated to the new specs (matching the real world regular series production model), the first one to get the honor was the Constitution, henceforth ships of this sub-class (including the Enterprise) are designated “Constitution Class”.
This pretty much covers all the available (multiple series) onscreen references as well as the creators’ behind the scenes intentions, and fan speculation to boot.
And it’s long been speculated by fans that the original pilot configuration represents the original specs (or close to it) for these ships, and that the regular production version of the TOS “E” represents a sub-class, traditionally these have been labeled “Constitution” and “Bonhomie Richards” classes.
But what if, as Bob suggests, The “E” was “the first bird” as intended by MJ, and therefore the class was (in universe) named “Enterprise” accordingly, but when the ships were uprated to the new specs (matching the real world regular series production model), the first one to get the honor was the Constitution, henceforth ships of this sub-class (including the Enterprise) are designated “Constitution Class”.
This pretty much covers all the available (multiple series) onscreen references as well as the creators’ behind the scenes intentions, and fan speculation to boot.
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TIN MAN, I don't believe the name Constitution was actually mentioned in any production memos.
I believe the screen origin of the name is from the phaser diagram not used in "Space Seed" but later used in "The Trouble with Tribbles." I believe the use of the name passed into popularity through Bjo Trimble's Concordance (presumably at the suggestion of the production staff since she did speak with them) and later Greg Jein connected it to NCC-1700 in his famout "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship," via registry matching methods which myself and others find suspect. I don't think anyone can say for sure what the production team's intention really was.
Canonically as far as class goes pre-TNG, all we really had was the "Enterprise Class Simulator" sign from TWOK, which some have said was based on Mr. Probert's notion that the refit should be considered Enterprise class. Later, because Okuda was friends with Jein and liked his ideas, he established Constitution class in the reference books and it passed into onscreen usage several times on TNG and DS9.
Those nits picked, your idea is still an intriguing one.
I believe the screen origin of the name is from the phaser diagram not used in "Space Seed" but later used in "The Trouble with Tribbles." I believe the use of the name passed into popularity through Bjo Trimble's Concordance (presumably at the suggestion of the production staff since she did speak with them) and later Greg Jein connected it to NCC-1700 in his famout "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship," via registry matching methods which myself and others find suspect. I don't think anyone can say for sure what the production team's intention really was.
Canonically as far as class goes pre-TNG, all we really had was the "Enterprise Class Simulator" sign from TWOK, which some have said was based on Mr. Probert's notion that the refit should be considered Enterprise class. Later, because Okuda was friends with Jein and liked his ideas, he established Constitution class in the reference books and it passed into onscreen usage several times on TNG and DS9.
Those nits picked, your idea is still an intriguing one.
This is all essentially correct, and you're right, the memos quoted in TMoST don't include the name Constitution but Whitfield/Poe does add the commentary that establishes the Constitution among names for starships, so he probably was aware of the phaser diagram and/or discussions relating to it? At the time this may not have referred to a starship "like the Enterprise", but later trek does associate the name with the (TOS) Enterprise's class, so there you go.
The movie refit is a whole different colored horse, and really doesn't have any bearing on earlier subclasses. But my own two quatloos worth is that TMP "E" is literally in a class by herself being something of a test bed prototype which had some features that never became standard hence "Enterprise class" once again; whereas the "E-A" was more typical of her subclass and was perhaps "Constitution II" or whatever floats your boat. Fair enough?
P.S. Does anyone remember if the AMT model kits included “Constitution” as one of the twelve names on the decal sheet, or when AMT first started issuing these with the kits? This may have some bearing on where the “C” became associated with the “E’s” sister ships?
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I really have serious doubts about there being any props from the actual Phase II to reproduce. They didn't really get that far. They had lots of plans, and they'd done some mock-ups of sets for screen tests, but even for the Xon and Illia screen tests they had them wearing old TOS style uniforms and such.
Sorry, but wrong. They were well beyond "mock-ups of sets"...sets have been built, and there are many photos to prove it. When the production changed to TMP Harold Michelson had to revamp the existing Phase II sets for the film, right down to taking the walls built for Admiral Nogura's office and converting them into walls for the Cargo Deck.
^Right. One reason that TMP was considered the most expensive movie ever made up to that point (it was actually in The Guiness Book of World Records!) was because Paramount lumped the budgets of Phase II and all the prior Trek movie development projects in with the budget for TMP itself. A lot of that PII budget was set construction, as well as miniatures.
I'm not aware that TNG officially established "Constitution Class" for the TOS Enterprise.
I've just compiled plenty of evidence in the "Enterprise-A" tech thread that we might be looking at a lot of confusion here.
From TNG's Relics: ...
I address all the next-gen dialogue and the conclusions we can draw from it in my "plenty of evidence" link to the other thread, and the reaction is just a repetition of the dialogue. Yes Picard assumes that the holodeck is showing "Scotty's Enterprise".
TIN MAN is of course correct when he points out that Constitution had made it in the end (!) to the official list of the 12 Enterprise starships.
But this is a summary apparently written by Mr. Whitfield who also referred to the "Enterprise-class starships" in his chapter "Mission and Men".
I, too, considered the possibility that the Constitution might have been the first ship to undergo a TMP refit (hence Constitution Class in ST VI) but the Official TMP Blueprints referring to "new Enterprise Class" and the "Enterprise Class simulator" in ST II suggested otherwise.
16th starship design series = Constitution Class (incl. refit)
17th starship design series = Enterprise Class (incl. refit)
Bob
I'm not aware that TNG officially established "Constitution Class" for the TOS Enterprise.
I've just compiled plenty of evidence in the "Enterprise-A" tech thread that we might be looking at a lot of confusion here.
From TNG's Relics: ...
I address all the next-gen dialogue and the conclusions we can draw from it in my "plenty of evidence" link to the other thread, and the reaction is just a repetition of the dialogue. Yes Picard assumes that the holodeck is showing "Scotty's Enterprise".
Well, if Picard assumed the holodeck was showing Scotty's Enterprise, Scotty then confirmed it. Not only that, but we, the viewers, knew the holodeck was showing Scotty's Enterprise. Further, Picard states as a matter of fact that it's Constitution Classs. Plus, as Christopher pointed out, Picard explicitly stated in The Naked Now that Kirk commanded the Constitution Class Enterprise.
I'll have to go read your post, but I don't see how TNG can be more explicit in establishing that Kirk's Enterprise was Constitution Class. That may be a retcon, but it seems pretty clear.
Please do so. And check out the addendum I added later, noticing additional irregularities in "Relics".
Bob
Just a few clarifications before getting back on topic...
Which is why I made my suggestions above, to reconcile these two (and other) seemingly contradictory statements; IOW, I'm saying that perhaps the TOS "E" can be both an "Enterprise class" and a "Constitution class" starship, depending on whether we're talking about Pike's pilot configuration (the "E" class) or Kirk's series configuration (the "C" sub-class). This way everyone gets to have their cake and eat too.
Just to be perfectly clear (I hope), what I'm saying is the TOS era Constitution herself was also originally an "Enterprise class" (pilot configuration), but was the first ship to undergo the refit into the series configuration, henceforth all ships, including the Enterprise, to get the identical refit (maybe just some, maybe all) would be known as "Constitution class".
I think the term "refit" confuses people; in the above, I'm not talking about TMP "E" at all. Therefore there is no contradiction with the "official" blueprints for that "refit", or the simulator scene in WOK, this ship was once again "Enterprise class" because this time it was the first (and perhaps only ship) to be uprated to these newer specs. Remember, the "E-A" is not the same ship, full of subtle differences from the original TMP/WOK/TSFS ship and therefore probably is of a different subclass and would be referred to as such, as it was (I believe) in the scene from TUC.
Possibly, but this just unnecessarily complicates things IMHO, it doesn't matter what number the "C" is, (as long as it isn't specifically 1700), it could very well be a member of the 1701 through 1709 series, but just one which has not been officially assigned yet. All we need to explain is why Kirk’s series era ship is identified as a "Constitution class" instead of "Enterprise class" as apparently was MJ's original intent, and I believe my theory does just that.
Robert Comsol;8677624 [B said:TIN MAN [/B]is of course correct when he points out that Constitution had made it in the end (!) to the official list of the 12 Enterprise starships.
But this is a summary apparently written by Mr. Whitfield who also referred to the "Enterprise-class starships" in his chapter "Mission and Men".
Which is why I made my suggestions above, to reconcile these two (and other) seemingly contradictory statements; IOW, I'm saying that perhaps the TOS "E" can be both an "Enterprise class" and a "Constitution class" starship, depending on whether we're talking about Pike's pilot configuration (the "E" class) or Kirk's series configuration (the "C" sub-class). This way everyone gets to have their cake and eat too.
I, too, considered the possibility that the Constitution might have been the first ship to undergo a TMP refit (hence Constitution Class in ST VI) but the Official TMP Blueprints referring to "new Enterprise Class" and the "Enterprise Class simulator" in ST II suggested otherwise.
Just to be perfectly clear (I hope), what I'm saying is the TOS era Constitution herself was also originally an "Enterprise class" (pilot configuration), but was the first ship to undergo the refit into the series configuration, henceforth all ships, including the Enterprise, to get the identical refit (maybe just some, maybe all) would be known as "Constitution class".
I think the term "refit" confuses people; in the above, I'm not talking about TMP "E" at all. Therefore there is no contradiction with the "official" blueprints for that "refit", or the simulator scene in WOK, this ship was once again "Enterprise class" because this time it was the first (and perhaps only ship) to be uprated to these newer specs. Remember, the "E-A" is not the same ship, full of subtle differences from the original TMP/WOK/TSFS ship and therefore probably is of a different subclass and would be referred to as such, as it was (I believe) in the scene from TUC.
Possibly, but this just unnecessarily complicates things IMHO, it doesn't matter what number the "C" is, (as long as it isn't specifically 1700), it could very well be a member of the 1701 through 1709 series, but just one which has not been officially assigned yet. All we need to explain is why Kirk’s series era ship is identified as a "Constitution class" instead of "Enterprise class" as apparently was MJ's original intent, and I believe my theory does just that.
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I don't take the "Enterprise Class simulator" sign in TWOK too seriously. After all, despite the inclinations of some fans to pretend that this is some consistent reality where every detail is equally binding, the fact is this is a bunch of different works of fiction invented by different people who interpret things in different ways and sometimes just make mistakes or forget stuff. So if most episodes/movies say one thing and a single instance contradicts them, it's often best just to dismiss it as a continuity glitch.
Besides, it was a simulator at a school, so maybe it was "Enterprise class" like "history class" or "shop class."
Besides, it was a simulator at a school, so maybe it was "Enterprise class" like "history class" or "shop class."