Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

[Yanks]

Well, Spock(prime) was emotionally "compromised" in ST09 as well. He didn't go off on an illogical emotional rampage.

You mean the much older Spock who has lived his life and knows his actual friends are alive and well in the prime universe from which he came?

Yes, the same Spock that refused to help his dying father.

...and this is the same timeline for Spock(prime), just earlier.

They've completely lost nuSpock.

Lost him from where? This universe is somewhat different from the prime universe. It's like saying "this orange doesn't taste at all like the other apples."

No, not at all.

Why have friend in quotes? Kirk is Spock's friend, or at least they seem to be working toward a friendship in ST09. By STiD some time has passed, and they have become friends. Each offers their own attributes to that friendship, but they are friends. Why do you think Kirk was so upset that Spock filed the Nubira report without telling him? Because he trusted Spock as a friend to let him know. Spock didn't understand Kirk's anger because Spock's idea of friendship was a bit different. That doesn't change that they were friends.

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

Balls what? Do you mean "bawls"? He cries because in less than a handful of years, he's lost his first home, most of his race, his mother, and nearly lost his friends.

Now he sees the man whom he has drawn closer to, laying in front of him, dying after having sacrificed himself to save the ship. This is his family. Thanks to his meld with Pike, he now knows the pain of fear and confusion one experiences upon death, and it mirrors his own, and in that moment, he just loses the last bit of logical cohesion that kept him in check.

See above.

He's a Vulcan, not a robot. Why is this difficult to understand?

I understand it perfectly.

Flies toward what? The Enterprise was without power and caught in Earth's gravity well. It was plummeting toward the surface. There's no "apparent reason" because it didn't happen the way you say it did.

Correct, my mistake.

So why did Commander Spock lead Khan back to Earth? How is that prudent here? Was there an armada of Star Fleet ships there to assist him?

"Incredible Hulk"? The man was enraged that Khan had killed his friend, his brother in every meaningful sense of the word, a man who turned on him and the crew of the Enterprise, and tried to kill them all. He saw him getting away, and pursued him with intent to end it once and for all.

Again, not a robot, never was.

Never said he was. But he was never an out of control emotional loon either.

Not the Spock we all know and love.

Apparently you know and love a different Spock. In fact, you do know and love a different Spock. One from another timeline where none of the tragedies that befell this Spock had ever happened.

OK, sure.

Nothing in "nu" Trek should have changed the character.

Seriously? You'd see most of humanity die, lose your mother, watch your friend die sacrificing himself to save you, face death yourself only to survive, and watch a madman try to kill your family, and would walk away from it unfazed?

Didn't say unfazed.

Congratulations, you've outSpocked Leonard Nimoy. Go collect your pointed ears.

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.

 

[BillJ]

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

 

[BillJ]

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.

I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yes, the same Spock that refused to help his dying father.

Because people generally react the same to [somewhat] similar situations when they're 80 the same way they did when they were 25.

But this demonstrates you clearly don't understand the difference.

It was obvious that NimoySpock was always at odds with Sarek and had a much better relationship with his mother--this goes as far back as "Babel."

This was clearly the case for Quinto Spock as well (as shown in the first act of ST09). But it all changed the instant Amanda was killed. Fast forward to nuSpocks theoretical future, and I guarantee he'll be at nuSarek's bedside should he still develop Vulcan Alzheimer's--which isn't a certainty anymore.

...and this is the same timeline for Spock(prime), just earlier.

No.

But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

Bullshit.

I understand it perfectly.

Your posts suggest otherwise.

So why did Commander Spock lead Khan back to Earth?

He didn't?

But he was never an out of control emotional loon either.

Because, aside from dying and then magically resurrecting, he lived a pretty uneventful life. Non the less, he was still emotional ... all the time.

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.

It was an unfortunate necessity. Omitting Spock Prime would have been a plot hole. Having him say, "Yes I'm here. I'm would not normally intervene, but since this the guy everyone in the audience recognizes as Star Trek's uberbad, I'm going to set this one-time exception..." Sets a precedent. This actually part of the reason the villian HAD to be Khan. Now they don't ever have to tap this well again (no matter how many more films they make). Think of it as a prophylactic should something unfortunately happen to Nimoy.

It's actually fastidious, albeit awkward, writing.

 

[Sindatur]

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people

 

[The Wormhole]

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people

I'd say there's evidence in the movie that Kirk and Spock don't really have that meaningful a bond of friendship, given that Spock snitched on Kirk for saving his life resulting in Kirk getting demoted.

And really, Kirk and Spock's friendship is not as profound and meaningful in STID as it was in TWOK. In the Abrams continuity, the two were antagonistic towards each other to the point that it took Spock Prime showing up to say "yeah, we were BFF in my timeline" for them to talk to each other.

 

[BillJ]

I'd say there's evidence in the movie that Kirk and Spock don't really have that meaningful a bond of friendship, given that Spock snitched on Kirk for saving his life resulting in Kirk getting demoted.

I don't know. There aren't too many people that I'd tell that I'd miss them if we were too permanently part ways.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The nuSpock formula: Take a "Cage"-era Spock, more emotional and more vulnerable, and break him. He was pushed over the edge, exposed to traumas the likes of which Spock Prime never experienced. It makes perfect sense to me.

And remember, the elder and much more stable Spock Prime was "emotionally compromised" too - his voice is breaking when he tells Kirk this, and at the end of the mind meld Kirk has tears pouring down his face and has to take a moment to compose himself. Why? "Emotional tranferrence is an effect of the mind meld" - those tears are Spocks, hidden behind his Vulcan stoicism.

 

[Yanks]

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

Well sure it is.

You think a friendship that just got started is as meaningful and deep as one that has continued to develop over a lifetime of esperiences?

 

[F. King Daniel]

When you click with someone? Yes it is.

 

[Yanks]

I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people

None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Wrath of Khan works perfectly as a standalone movie, just as Into Darkness does. You don't have to have seen all 79 episodes to apreciate Kirk and Spock's friendship in WoK, just as you don't to understand Spock's realization of friendship in ID.

 

[Yanks]

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.

I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.

Just because you think she was fucking right doesn't mean she is either.

It's a cop-out for nuSpock. Everytime he gets in a pickle he can just call himself.

And what made it worse was - what information did nuSpock obtain that helped him at all? What information obtained did he use to capture/stop/understand Khan?

Nothing, not one useful bit of information.

Remove the scene, it doesn't change anything with the story.

Why does nuSpock need to call anyone? Does he need to hear Spockprime tell him Khan was a bad guy? That he was pissed? That he killed Pike?

Completely useless cameo.

 

[Yanks]

Wrath of Khan works perfectly as a standalone movie, just as Into Darkness does. You don't have to have seen all 79 episodes to apreciate Kirk and Spock's friendship in WoK, just as you don't to understand Spock's realization of friendship in ID.

I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.

 

[Yanks]

When you click with someone? Yes it is.

And what have you seen in nuTrek that makes you think they've "clicked"? ... from Spock's perspective?

I would submit it's because you know of their relationship in hTrek.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"h"?

 

[Kemaiku]

"h"?

Hysterical.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hammy

 

[BillJ]

I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.

By this standard there are no movie deaths that should be emotionally resonant because in most movies we are only being introduced to the characters involved.

This is where being a Trek fan is a hindrance to enjoying the movie. There were a good portion of Into Darkness ticket buyers who weren't even born when The Wrath of Khan was released and likely a good portion of those who had never even seen the movie. Should The Dark Knight not have used the Joker because there are people who were exposed to the character in different forms in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's?

The Abramsverse films had two ways to go as far as Kirk and Spock go: they could've picked up mid-five year mission and simply told us they were friends or they could try and show us the evolution of the friendship. They choose the latter. Has it been 100% successful? No. Has it been enjoyable? Hell yes. In the former we pick up with a Kirk and Spock who have been serving together for less than a year if certain interpretations are to be believed and Kirk trusted Spock's judgement enough to strand his best friend on a lifeless planet. There is no doubt in my mind that they were fast friends in the Prime timeline as well and that's not the Abrams films coloring that judgement, that's a personal interpretation I've held for decades.

Not every movie-goer is going to have seen The Wrath of Khan fifty-times and dissected it to the point that they can tell you who was responsible for every single detail.

 

[Sindatur]

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.

Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people

None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.

So, you can't accept they were close friends in the Salt Monster TOS Episode, which was the first episode aired (Or was it Where No One has Gone Before, but same point)?

As a board posting fan, surely you are aware of the comics depicting missions we haven't seen onscreen (I haven't read them, but, I accept this). Also, surely you're aware the creators have said a year has passed between movies.

But, it's pretty clear in the movies themselves. In ST09, they were at each other's throats, and then made up. That "Guy Lore" or "Movie lore" for they'll be besties for life. Additionally, it's obvious time has passed when STiD starts. Kirk makes it obvious he cares about Spock while they are worried about him in the Volcano. The whole report thing, shows Kirk feels a friend betrayed him. the shuttle they use to go to Qu'onos was Harry Mudd's from a mission weeks ago. It's all there in the movie, IMHO, if you just accept and absorb it.

Personally, I would've been very happy with an opening montage of a couple of minutes that showed up quick scenes of missions we are familiar with from TOS, so we can see that time has most definitely passed and that time has been filled with lots of missions together, but, it wasn't necessary, what we needed was indeed provided in the movies.