common misconceptions about Voyager

[Guy Gardener]

No actually.

(Maybe?)

The Borg raided up and down the Neutral Zone to see if the Federation or Romulans were worthwhile for assimilation.

The Borg were not interested.

If that was the same Cube that did it's business at the end of Season one, it was on it's wayback to he Delta Quardant sad that the Alpha Quadrant sucked and the Queen back home might not have sent another cube back to check on the status of this area of space for another 50 years.

(When you go fishing, you have to chuck the little ones back.)

But do you know what changed their mind?

Q

Either they recognized that the Federation had a relationship with the Q they could leverage, or they mistook Q transporting the Enterprise for a stardrive using an unknown and interesting method of propulsion they could assimilate.

Suddenly the Fedration became a prized target.

 

[MacLeod]

^^Correct me if I'm wrong but in the case of Farscape.

Crasis was chasing Crichton in part because he though he had killed his brother.
Scorpius was chasing Chrichton for his knowledge of wormholes.

So running into them was part of the back story as the antognist wanted the protagnist for some reason.

In the case of the Borg for example, through TNG they basically operated a policy of ignoring things unless they considered them a threat esp. onboard Borg Vessels.

And it's never implied that they didn't get more resources, which given the foreward nature of the station, it's serving as a base and a repair yard make logical sense to get a decent amount of resources.

And a PORTION of VOY's audiance made it clear they didn't want new alien races. True the Kazon ere a let down, but the Vidians were an intersting concept.

The problem is not so much as ahving a new race but more about having an intersting new race.

 

[Melakon]

The problem is not so much as ahving a new race but more about having an intersting new race.

The Vidians were a new race who could wear a new face. I wished they'd been used more, though a defense of their handheld organ transporters would have been needed, or some sort of truce arranged.

 

[MacLeod]

I prefered the Vidians to the Kazon.

 

[GameOn]

I prefered the Vidians to the Kazon.

The Kazon were a complete joke from the beginning but the Vidians were a good idea that was poorly executed. They could have been a tragic and sympathetic enemy that hated having to butcher other people in order to survive. Instead they were just some ugly recurring bad guys who wanted to cut you up.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I do understand the dominatrix persona and that some might not like it, but I find nothing wrong with that plot line. However I am somewhat insulted that you seem to think being a Mommy is a bad thing. Even in this day and time a sizeable majority of human females aspire to that designation, and a whole lot more have earned that designation and are very proud of it.

...I have no idea how you could find any interpretation of my post that in any way insinuates I'm against women aspiring to be mothers. If you need so badly to find somebody to soapbox your political pet peeves at, leave me out of it.

The problem with the Borg queen being a 'dominatrix mommy' obviously isn't the 'Mom' part, so much as the application of the 'Mom' theme to a blatant R&D fantasy and then making it the Borg big boss.

I figured the Borg send one cube at a time because they feel their eventual victory is inevitable and don't care how long it takes. So they don't even really care if a Borg cube gets destroyed because they next one will succeed. But put a dominatrix in charge who for some reason, needs to kidnap this one former Borg, and who hails Voyager just to threaten them and promises to let them off the hook if they're just nice enough to leave the UZ situation alone, they are no longer ruthlessly efficient machines and are now just like any other alien baddie who likes to conquer planets.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I prefered the Vidians to the Kazon.

The Kazon were a complete joke from the beginning but the Vidians were a good idea that was poorly executed. They could have been a tragic and sympathetic enemy that hated having to butcher other people in order to survive. Instead they were just some ugly recurring bad guys who wanted to cut you up.

Don't forget, sometimes they put you back together wrong and try to have sex with you.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Am I the only one.. ... who doesn't think the Kazon were awful? I loved all that stuff with Seska, I liked their piracy ethic.

 

[Anwar]

^^Correct me if I'm wrong but in the case of Farscape.

Crasis was chasing Crichton in part because he though he had killed his brother.
Scorpius was chasing Chrichton for his knowledge of wormholes.

So running into them was part of the back story as the antognist wanted the protagnist for some reason.

And when VOY did the same thing by having Seska be a recurring villain using the Kazon, no one liked it or thought it made sense.

When it turned out that VOY's crew had aliens that could be used to aid the Vidiians and gave the Vidiians a reason to chase them, no one liked THAT either.

And it's never implied that they didn't get more resources, which given the foreward nature of the station, it's serving as a base and a repair yard make logical sense to get a decent amount of resources.

Realistically, a full-scale war would tax resources and DS9 would be under attack more often and be more battle scarred. It never was.

And a PORTION of VOY's audiance made it clear they didn't want new alien races. True the Kazon ere a let down, but the Vidians were an intersting concept.

Then the audience shouldn't have been so disgusted with them or thought that they shouldn't show up very much.

The problem is not so much as ahving a new race but more about having an intersting new race.

No, the problem is that VOY was never given the chance to develop any of their aliens into something interesting because they audience hate everyone about their new aliens as soon as they were introduced.

Like I said, make the Founders and the Dominion a VOY enemy and no one would like them.

If the Vidiians were survivors of some Gamma Quadrant plague who showed up in DS9, everyone would love them and think they were cool.

They could have been a tragic and sympathetic enemy that hated having to butcher other people in order to survive. Instead they were just some ugly recurring bad guys who wanted to cut you up

They tried to make them more sympathetic, and got nothing but critical panning for doing so.

 

[R. Star]

I just have to point this out; subtle hints were tossed about that the borg were already looming at the end of Season 1 in TNG in the episode "The Neutral Zone" (S01 - E26). When Picard confronted the Romulans in the Neutral Zone, upon comparing notes, the Enterprise found that the Federation colonies that were destroyed along the neutral zone mirrored Romulan colonies that were destroyed along the neutral zone.

In "Best of Both Worlds", when Riker's team surveyed the colony that was destroyed, it was noted that the colony's destruction mirrored that of the colonies that were destroyed in "The Neutral Zone" (both in episode title and in region).

Q kicking the enterprise to see the Borg wasn't REALLY speeding up the first documented encounter by a few years. If anything, even though it didn't seem like it at the time, Q was actually doing the Federation a BIG FAVOR giving them a chance to actually see who was destroying those colonies in the Neutral Zone so it gave them a true chance to prepare instead of being blindsided by a Borg Cube when it finally would have made its way to Sector 001.

Q, in fact, did Picard a huge solid in "Q Who" (S02-E16). The dots just weren't exactly that clear and still aren't that clear unless someone really connects the dots. I'd actually go so far as to say that the Federation does, in fact, owe its continued existence post "Best of Both Worlds" to Q simply because he made them aware the Borg were on the approach.

Sadly, even later episodes don't ever actually make reference to this. Picard even says to Q at one point (I forget which episode) "... and you introduced us to the Borg, thanks for that" (sarcastically). I honestly am forced to blame this one on the writer who threw that line in there (or maybe Patrick Stewart's execution of the line, or maybe the direction of the episode).

It's a good point, back when the Borg were in city scooping mode, the neutral zone outposts were decimated in a similar fashion to that colony that Borg destroyed in BoBW.

Q may well have been just showing Picard what they were up against and giving them time to prepare. Not that they particularly used that time well, as the day was only saved by Riker and the Enterprise throwing a hail mary at the buzzer.

Sort of like in Tapestry or All Good Things how even as he's tormenting and jabbing at Picard he really is helping him despite it all.

 

[R. Star]

Apparently we were posting at the same time, but yes this is what I was asking for and I see your point. I don't particularly agree with it, but it does make your position make more sense to me. Thanks.

No problem. It's not the first time we've had the misfortune of disagreeing. In the end we are arguing about opinions, influenced by personal likes and dislikes, in a fictional setting after all.

 

[MacLeod]

^^^In a war some areas will have no doubt have a surplus of resources whilst others have deficit of resources. And there was at least one instance where they were having difficulty in getting a replacement part for the Defiant.

With the effective closure of the wormhole due to the wormhole aliens the strategic location of DSN to the Dominion was reduced. They still wouldn't control the wormhole.

At the end of the day as R. Star said it comes down to a matter of personal taste. We all have our likes and dislikes, differing levels of tolerance etc..

 

[Anwar]

It's a good point, back when the Borg were in city scooping mode, the neutral zone outposts were decimated in a similar fashion to that colony that Borg destroyed in BoBW.

It was stated in "Q Who?" that what happened at System J-25 was exactly what happened to the Neutral Zone Outposts. And then in BOBW it's again stated what happened at Jouret IV is the same as what happened at J-25.

The Borg were behind it all.

Q may well have been just showing Picard what they were up against and giving them time to prepare. Not that they particularly used that time well, as the day was only saved by Riker and the Enterprise throwing a hail mary at the buzzer.

The Borg were uninterested in the Feds and Romulans, and the same Borg Cube that attacked the Neutral Zone then left and went to J-25. Q threw them in the path of that same Cube which made them think "Wait a sec, our analysis showed these guys couldn't make it out here. How'd they get here?"

When analyzing the Enterprise did nothing to solve this, they decided to take the entire ship. When Q teleported them away, the Borg thought "Okay, how the heck did they do THAT?!" and figured the Feds had some unique abilities they missed.

This same vessel at J-25 then decided to go back to the Federation, arriving at Jouret IV in time for the events of BOBW. Upon which, it's destroyed.

Sort of like in Tapestry or All Good Things how even as he's tormenting and jabbing at Picard he really is helping him despite it all.

It was ultimately for their benefit. Being exposed to the Borg got the Feds out of their complacency and back into developing new Weapon tech and Ship designs like the Defiant and the other new ships we saw in FC and DS9.

Thus, when contact with the Dominion was made (which was inevitable at that point) the Feds were in a better position to survive an invasion.

 

[Brit]

The problem with the Borg queen being a 'dominatrix mommy' obviously isn't the 'Mom' part, so much as the application of the 'Mom' theme to a blatant R&D fantasy and then making it the Borg big boss.

Why is it wrong to have a Mom theme in R&D fantasy? I can't imagine any place where a Mom theme is wrong, not even in speculative fiction. Why wouldn't the Queen be a Mom figure, she looks like one to me and I mean that in a positive way. None of us would be here without Moms, and no one is going anywhere in the future without them either.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/05/top-10-mothers-in-science-fiction-and-fantasy-wayback/

 

[R. Star]

The problem with the Borg queen being a 'dominatrix mommy' obviously isn't the 'Mom' part, so much as the application of the 'Mom' theme to a blatant R&D fantasy and then making it the Borg big boss.

Why is it wrong to have a Mom theme in R&D fantasy? I can't imagine any place where a Mom theme is wrong, not even in speculative fiction. Why wouldn't the Queen be a Mom figure, she looks like one to me and I mean that in a positive way. None of us would be here without Moms, and no one is going anywhere in the future without them either.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/05/top-10-mothers-in-science-fiction-and-fantasy-wayback/

I dunno, I always thought it was kinda eerily similar how both Janeway and the Borg Queen were appealing to Seven in Dark Frontier. They both did strike me as maternal figures, one appealing to her humanity, one appealing to her Borg side. Even their arguments were both similar. Both wanted to make her choose their way, by force if necessary. Both accused the other of taking something away from her and offering to make Seven whole, in their own image. Neither really seemed to hit on the fact that Seven -was- for better or worse, a hybrid of the two cultures, and I wish she had called them both on that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Who is insulted by the thread title?

"You are wrong, and now I will explain how you are wrong."

That, and I'm not fond of being called common.

 

[Melakon]

You are definitely uncommon, Guy.

 

[Lighthammer]

The problem with the Borg queen being a 'dominatrix mommy' obviously isn't the 'Mom' part, so much as the application of the 'Mom' theme to a blatant R&D fantasy and then making it the Borg big boss.

Why is it wrong to have a Mom theme in R&D fantasy? I can't imagine any place where a Mom theme is wrong, not even in speculative fiction. Why wouldn't the Queen be a Mom figure, she looks like one to me and I mean that in a positive way. None of us would be here without Moms, and no one is going anywhere in the future without them either.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/05/top-10-mothers-in-science-fiction-and-fantasy-wayback/

I dunno, I always thought it was kinda eerily similar how both Janeway and the Borg Queen were appealing to Seven in Dark Frontier. They both did strike me as maternal figures, one appealing to her humanity, one appealing to her Borg side. Even their arguments were both similar. Both wanted to make her choose their way, by force if necessary. Both accused the other of taking something away from her and offering to make Seven whole, in their own image. Neither really seemed to hit on the fact that Seven -was- for better or worse, a hybrid of the two cultures, and I wish she had called them both on that.

If the irony isn't thick enough --- in the whole Path 2409 series, Janeway BECOMES the Borg Queen.

In fairness --- Guy is neither common nor uncommon --- lets at least use a rarity that comes close to describing him --- at minimum, he's Epic Guy.

Anywhoo, regarding Picard and Qs relationship --- I wonder if by "Q Who", TPTB etched out their plans for Picard and Q. In the relaunch novels, "Q & A", we learn all along that Q was preparing Picard the entire time to face 'Them'.

Part of me thinks this story concept has been thrown around since the launch of TNG and took till 2007 when the end game with Q was really revealed. I almost feel like this had to have been talked about as a plot development way back in 1989 and even perhaps in 1987 as a direction for the story.

Man would I love to know if that's the case.

 

[Brit]

Anywhoo, regarding Picard and Qs relationship --- I wonder if by "Q Who", TPTB etched out their plans for Picard and Q. In the relaunch novels, "Q & A", we learn all along that Q was preparing Picard the entire time to face 'Them'.

Part of me thinks this story concept has been thrown around since the launch of TNG and took till 2007 when the end game with Q was really revealed. I almost feel like this had to have been talked about as a plot development way back in 1989 and even perhaps in 1987 as a direction for the story.

Man would I love to know if that's the case.

Me too, I read Q and A a couple of years ago. And if you play that progression just a hair forward, you think about why Q had so much interest in Janeway and Voyager. I've thought that perhaps Q needed Voyager to keep the Borg off-balance just enough to allow Picard to take the test. Makes that little course correction Q gave to Janeway at the end of Q 2 make more sense.

 

[BruntFCA]

When it turned out that VOY's crew had aliens that could be used to aid the Vidiians and gave the Vidiians a reason to chase them, no one liked THAT either.

They tried to make them more sympathetic, and got nothing but critical panning for doing so.

Source? You keep using "the audience didn't like this" to try and back up your arguments, but without some kind of evidence it's completely irrelevant to the discussion and frankly makes your argument a bit of a strawman.