STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[BillJ]

It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint

Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?

Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.

 

[Shazam!]

*bites tongue*

 

[Ln X]

Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.

I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.

It's up there (and goes beyond) with Sisko committing attempted genocide on those Maquis worlds, Picard and the crew just watching as a planet's atmosphere burns and kills the inhabitants while doing nothing about it! So Star Trek has had its muddled moments and occasionally totally destroys its characters with badly thought-out plots and episodes. But STID goes one step further.

 

[BillJ]

I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.

Whether the gymnastics it takes are acceptable or not is up to each individual viewer. I, personally, had a blast all four times I saw Into Darkness.

Is it a perfect movie? No. But it sure is fun to watch.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint

Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?

Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.

This was covered in dialog (someththing like this).

Khan: "Kirk. Your still alove old friend."

Kirk: "Still. old friend. Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target."

Khan: "Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral."

(beams up genesis device).

David: "They wouldn't dare take it !!!"

Kirk: "Khan. You have Genesis, but you don't have me. You were going to kill ME khan. You're going to have to come down here. Your going to HAVE to COME DOWN HERE !!!"

Khan: "I've done far worse that kill you. I've hurt you. I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive, buried alive."

Kirk: "KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN !!!!!"

(Cut to khan relishing in Kirk's scream and defeat.)

Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.

 

[BillJ]

Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.

Bullshit.

The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it. The whole movie Khan simply couldn't wait to kill Kirk and then right at the end he decides "just kidding!"

KHAN (on viewscreen): Surely I have made my meaning plain. I mean to avenge myself upon you, Admiral. I've deprived your ship of power and when I swing round I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you.

KHAN: First things first, Captain. ...Kill Admiral Kirk.

KHAN (on intercom): Kill him, Terrell, now!

 

[Ln X]

Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.

But this is NuKhan, so while similar to the Khan of the Prime universe, this movie distorted his traits and attributes. He now really is a superhuman, who does the whole cliched villain gets captured thing and his emotions are now supercharged and electrified like pretty all of the main characters. Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain. So while Kahn can act and feel threatening, you just have to realise how stupid and convoluted his plan is (and what was his plan after all of that; free his people, start a Klingon/Federation war or both?) and that just really dilutes this character no matter how threatening he can be.

 

[BillJ]

Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain.

Are you kidding?

Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.

I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.

 

[Pauln6]

The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it.

This is a wider problem of them making the transporters too universally useful. If they had maintained the restriction that you could only beam someone up with a clear, attuned, communicator signal adjacent to their person then Khan would not be able to beam any Enterprise crew up. That doesn't hold up so well in TWoK, since Kirk picks up Chekov's communicator to shout at Khan though...

 

[Ln X]

Are you kidding?

Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.

I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.

Nah I haven't seen TWOK, but people were talking up this the new Kahn and for a villain he was average, he would have been better if the plot were a little more watertight. Even if I had seen TWOK I wouldn't really care if there was any deviation, it's a new universe so different things are going to happen. When I watched STID I went from considering it Star Trek to thinking it to be a really funny comedy given how laughably bad and convulted it all was, and then finally realising this was just a bad movie period.

STID has nothing to offer if you start thinking about it and if you could detach yourself from the incessant action scenes and weird plot twists whilst watching it. In that way STID is a very weird film, it has no concept of pacing, it seems to shy away from quiet moments and thoughtful inflection and to me that is the clearest sign yet that JJ Abrams knew this story was a pile of convoluted garbage that would not hold up. So he had to distract, bamboozle and wow everyone with soap opera moments, action sequence after action sequence and plot twists that made no real sense. STID is a decent action film, but it so fragmented and there is nothing truly memorable (aside from Carol in her underwear) or thought-provoking.

The flaws are so numerous and so obvious I'm surprised so many people overlook them (even the critics). So maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to watching new films, or perhaps every ones standards have reached rock bottom. So what was considered a stupid movie twenty years ago is now considered deep, thought-provoking and intelligent.

It's a real mystery to me why so many enjoy STID, it's such a mystery that I really do need it spelt out to me concerning what exactly is so great and amazing about this film. Honest to God I really do not see it!

 

[BillJ]

Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.

 

[Ln X]

Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.

I have and there were stupid moments in many of the movies, but with most of them you could explain them away. And plot holes aside the characterization and depth was just better full stop, so even ignoring the plot holes what makes STID so great when the characters are all cartoon and extreme versions of the TOS ones, and the universe is a really LITERAL interpretation of the prime one.

Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie. So what has STID got when you can't really apply logic to this film?

I mean if our main characters (Kirk, Spock and Kahn) really have so much depth, could anyone describe these characters, their motivations, history and attributes in more than 1000 words? I mean you could do that with all the important characters in the Trek series (heck even some of the secondary ones in DS9!), and a good film (any good film) is such that you can write an awful lot about the important characters if they have depth or the plot has many layers to it (like Inception for instance).

 

[BillJ]

Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie.

This pretty much ends the discussion.

Thread on The Wrath of Khan:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=216757

 

[Shazam!]

Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.

Will he then be allowed to not like STID?

 

[BillJ]

Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.

Will he then be allowed to not like STID?

Why do you get testy when people defend this film? Anyone can like or dislike any film they chose. When they put their reasons up on a public message board, then they are inviting folks to discuss those reasons.

 

[Ln X]

Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie.

This pretty much ends the discussion.

Thread on The Wrath of Khan:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=216757

I wasn't talking about TWOK I was talking about STID.

 

[BillJ]

I wasn't talking about TWOK I was talking about STID.

I know which movie you were talking about. I just thought maybe you should go see how many holes and bits of illogic the fans of this board were able to spot in The Wrath of Khan.

 

[Shazam!]

I just thought maybe you should go see how many holes and bits of illogic the fans of this board were able to spot in The Wrath of Khan.

Urgh, I don't even agree with half of what he's saying, but why should he? What's the best that can happen?

He doesn't find any but is then continually told he's wrong.

Or he finds a bunch and then ends up disliking both films.

Brilliant, well done.

 

[BillJ]

Or he finds a bunch and then ends up disliking both films.

Even with the plot "difficulties", I've loved the movie for thirty years. Why can't a person love something that's flawed?

 

[Belz...]

I know exactly how Spock took it

Well your comments in this thread indicate that you don't.

seeing ones planet be destroyed is several orders of magnitude worse than seeing ones best friend die.

Ever heard of the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back" ?

Well ST: Into Darkness is a steaming pile of boiling emotions, illogical actions and threadbare plots.

So it's realistic, then.

It doesn't explain too well about Admiral Marcus' reasons for becoming this dictator, so he wants a war fine.

Sure it does. We've discussed that at length.

Spock is way too emotional.

By what metric ?

I know TOS Kirk broke the rules from time to time, but those were under exceptional circumstances, yet Into Darkness just portrays Kirk as this hothead who recoils at following orders.

You might have missed it in the first movie, but he had a very, very different childhood from Prime Kirk.

Kahn was good, but boy did he make some dumb decisions!

Then I'll say this for him, he's consistent.

Hell Odo didn't cry once, but you could always tell when that character was in pain. But no, NuTrek Spock is illogically emotional.

Yeah but we're talking about Odo, here. Vulcans have much more violent emotions than humans.

Didn't humans attack those Klingons on Qo'noS?

How would the Klingons know Starfleet was even there ? Plausible deniability.

Right now Star Trek has become like Star Wars

Oh, I wish people would stop making that parallel. The new Trek movies are NOTHING like Star Wars. Action doesn't equal Star Wars.

and the franchise is going to wither away and die because of that.

Actually it almost withered away and died for the reverse reason.

Lastly Into Darkness felt like a very watered-down version of Star Trek.

It felt like TOS, actually. Quite a bit.

This is not reinventing Star Trek, instead this is killing the franchise

Please do not confuse your appreciation for a movie with its level of success. The box office revenues disagree with you.

And finally two more points: Starfleet feels too much like an army and those caps really suck!

Starfleet has always felt like the military, and they've had caps before. They just never wore them. Hell, there was one in the very first pilot.