STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]
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One of several memes I will be posting mocking the <insert profanity here> out of the most stupidest Trek movie of all time.
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One of several memes I will be posting mocking the <insert profanity here> out of the most stupidest Trek movie of all time.
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Seems to kind miss the point that he comes completely unglued later in Star Trek 2009. But hey, have fun ignoring facts.
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It's completely wrong, though, by which I mean, its factual inaccuracy makes its insinuation false.
Spock lost it in Star Trek (2009), because he was emotionally compromised by the destruction of Vulcan.
So.... fail.
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Some more fun...
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Some more fun...
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A false meme, in this case. He didn't take it stoically in the first movie at all. Don't you remember ? "Emotionally compromised" ? That was a major plot element of the first movie, and it carries on in the second one. STID all but flatly tells you that Spock is still unhinged from the experience, and that's why he snaps at the end.
I know exactly how Spock took it -- and most memes take liberty with the finer details that I admit -- but seeing ones planet be destroyed is several orders of magnitude worse than seeing ones best friend die. So I could understand Spock losing it in the first movie, anyone would if they saw their home planet be destroyed. But seeing his captain (a man he only knew for at most a year) die and becoming so emotional. Way too out of character. Spock's a Vulcan, not some Klingon wanting revenge.
If you've got specific criticisms, you're more than welcome to post them in this thread. However, continued spamming of the forum with posts consisting only of image macros (never mind ones hotlinked from a website not belonging to you) is likely to result in a warning.
Personally, I'd advise against it.
Alright no more memes got it.
Here are my list of criticisms, a little disjointed but...
Well ST: Into Darkness is a steaming pile of boiling emotions, illogical actions and threadbare plots. It doesn't explain too well about Admiral Marcus' reasons for becoming this dictator, so he wants a war fine. But at best he has authority of ships in the Sol system, what about the rest of the Federation.
Spock is way too emotional. The Uhura/Spock romance still doesn't gel and Spock even contradicts his own logical reasons at times.
As for Kirk... The first quarter of the movie kind of destroyed the very reasons why Kirk was promoted to captain in the first movie. I know TOS Kirk broke the rules from time to time, but those were under exceptional circumstances, yet Into Darkness just portrays Kirk as this hothead who recoils at following orders.
Kahn was good, but boy did he make some dumb decisions! He beamed over those torpedoes without checking their contents! I mean if this really is the great masterful Kahn, who sees all and anticipates all, then he didn't cotton onto Spock's Trojan Horse until it was too late.
Kirk's 'death' scene was good but it was ruined by Spock crying and then shouting 'Kahhnnnn!!!' That was really embarrassing! It would have worked much better if Spock took it stoically like all Vulcans did, it would have worked ten times as well if all you could see was the pain in Spock's eyes but that would be the extent of his outward reaction to the death of Kirk. Hell Odo didn't cry once, but you could always tell when that character was in pain. But no, NuTrek Spock is illogically emotional.
While there are references to the first movie NuTrek movie, this movie doesn't come close to being as good as JJ's first Star Trek film. It needed a solid plot, but there were so many holes, inconsistencies and question marks that the plot didn't add up. It was muddled. I mean why aren't the Klingons at war with Starfleet? Didn't humans attack those Klingons on Qo'noS? Also those Klingons looked hideous! Where was the good old TNG and DS9 Klingon make-up? Finally using a tribble as the mechanism to revive Kirk is so embarrassing.
And I love how this movie can't go two minutes without a; action and explosions, or b; throwing characters into constant peril. Right now Star Trek has become like Star Wars and the franchise is going to wither away and die because of that. And the only reason why we had two new Star Trek movies was because Star Trek was the last franchise which Hollywood could wring dry in their never-ending quest for reboots, origins films, remakes, prequels, sequels and basically anything which is not original or ballsy. Hollywood has dug itself into a colossal hole which it keeps digging deeper as marketability continues to look ever backwards and not instead look forwards to new types of films which could be profitable.
Lastly Into Darkness felt like a very watered-down version of Star Trek. It couldn't go two minutes without some action scene, it couldn't get (or dare to be) a bit ponderous and contemplative without some new threat popping up. Finally this movie tries to give a sense of an 'epic' feel but it doesn't work with Star Trek. This movie was trying to be like the dozen or other epic movies out there: Transformers, the new Batman trilogy, LOTR, Superman Returns and so forth.
This is not reinventing Star Trek, instead this is killing the franchise because Star Trek cannot compete with superhero movies and (epic) origins movies which are big on action, bling and intense emotions but very light on a decent plot, morality and more natural character development.
Again that's the problem with origin movies, you rehash a franchise with more modern themes and 'darkness', and you perhaps get a sequel to but when it comes down to it, how has it really developed that particular franchise? The answer it hasn't, all it has done is kept that franchise in the mainstream for a few months while not really adding anything new or substantial. I fear the same as happened to Star Trek now. It's been diluted to the point where the franchise is no different to the other hundred or so action movies out there competing for box office success. Nothing new has been offered and it's no longer a reboot, it's a dilution of a franchise to the point where it is blurred, generic and unrecognisable.
I wouldn't even say this is what the audience wants because new movies of this calibre are now virtually the same: intense action scenes, a few heart-throbbing moments and a very thin story with not much going for it. It's what I suspected anyway, once you take NuTrek's bling there is not much going for it.
And finally two more points: Starfleet feels too much like an army and those caps really suck! It looks like something the North Korean army wears for God sake! Finally in that ceremony scene for captain Pike, I swear to God there was an American flag flying in the background.
With that all said I thought the movie was mediocre, I laughed in many places for how stupid it was and for all the character assassinations. But the bottom line is this; I would not buy this movie for DVD. Hell even Nemesis and Insurrection are better than this train wreck!
What Star Trek needs is not another makeover, it needs to return to the basics: science, politics, spirituality and morality. Yes add in a bit more drama and action, yes have a decent pace, but each movie and (hopefully) new episode needs to have a lot more food for thought. Even with the bad Trek movies and episodes you always stopped to think about what was going on even if that alien race was cheesy or things didn't quite gel.
Here are my list of criticisms, a little disjointed but...
Well ST: Into Darkness is a steaming pile of boiling emotions, illogical actions and threadbare plots. It doesn't explain too well about Admiral Marcus' reasons for becoming this dictator, so he wants a war fine. But at best he has authority of ships in the Sol system, what about the rest of the Federation.
Spock is way too emotional. The Uhura/Spock romance still doesn't gel and Spock even contradicts his own logical reasons at times.
As for Kirk... The first quarter of the movie kind of destroyed the very reasons why Kirk was promoted to captain in the first movie. I know TOS Kirk broke the rules from time to time, but those were under exceptional circumstances, yet Into Darkness just portrays Kirk as this hothead who recoils at following orders.
Kahn was good, but boy did he make some dumb decisions! He beamed over those torpedoes without checking their contents! I mean if this really is the great masterful Kahn, who sees all and anticipates all, then he didn't cotton onto Spock's Trojan Horse until it was too late.
Kirk's 'death' scene was good but it was ruined by Spock crying and then shouting 'Kahhnnnn!!!' That was really embarrassing! It would have worked much better if Spock took it stoically like all Vulcans did, it would have worked ten times as well if all you could see was the pain in Spock's eyes but that would be the extent of his outward reaction to the death of Kirk. Hell Odo didn't cry once, but you could always tell when that character was in pain. But no, NuTrek Spock is illogically emotional.
While there are references to the first movie NuTrek movie, this movie doesn't come close to being as good as JJ's first Star Trek film. It needed a solid plot, but there were so many holes, inconsistencies and question marks that the plot didn't add up. It was muddled. I mean why aren't the Klingons at war with Starfleet? Didn't humans attack those Klingons on Qo'noS? Also those Klingons looked hideous! Where was the good old TNG and DS9 Klingon make-up? Finally using a tribble as the mechanism to revive Kirk is so embarrassing.
And I love how this movie can't go two minutes without a; action and explosions, or b; throwing characters into constant peril. Right now Star Trek has become like Star Wars and the franchise is going to wither away and die because of that. And the only reason why we had two new Star Trek movies was because Star Trek was the last franchise which Hollywood could wring dry in their never-ending quest for reboots, origins films, remakes, prequels, sequels and basically anything which is not original or ballsy. Hollywood has dug itself into a colossal hole which it keeps digging deeper as marketability continues to look ever backwards and not instead look forwards to new types of films which could be profitable.
Lastly Into Darkness felt like a very watered-down version of Star Trek. It couldn't go two minutes without some action scene, it couldn't get (or dare to be) a bit ponderous and contemplative without some new threat popping up. Finally this movie tries to give a sense of an 'epic' feel but it doesn't work with Star Trek. This movie was trying to be like the dozen or other epic movies out there: Transformers, the new Batman trilogy, LOTR, Superman Returns and so forth.
This is not reinventing Star Trek, instead this is killing the franchise because Star Trek cannot compete with superhero movies and (epic) origins movies which are big on action, bling and intense emotions but very light on a decent plot, morality and more natural character development.
Again that's the problem with origin movies, you rehash a franchise with more modern themes and 'darkness', and you perhaps get a sequel to but when it comes down to it, how has it really developed that particular franchise? The answer it hasn't, all it has done is kept that franchise in the mainstream for a few months while not really adding anything new or substantial. I fear the same as happened to Star Trek now. It's been diluted to the point where the franchise is no different to the other hundred or so action movies out there competing for box office success. Nothing new has been offered and it's no longer a reboot, it's a dilution of a franchise to the point where it is blurred, generic and unrecognisable.
I wouldn't even say this is what the audience wants because new movies of this calibre are now virtually the same: intense action scenes, a few heart-throbbing moments and a very thin story with not much going for it. It's what I suspected anyway, once you take NuTrek's bling there is not much going for it.
And finally two more points: Starfleet feels too much like an army and those caps really suck! It looks like something the North Korean army wears for God sake! Finally in that ceremony scene for captain Pike, I swear to God there was an American flag flying in the background.
With that all said I thought the movie was mediocre, I laughed in many places for how stupid it was and for all the character assassinations. But the bottom line is this; I would not buy this movie for DVD. Hell even Nemesis and Insurrection are better than this train wreck!
What Star Trek needs is not another makeover, it needs to return to the basics: science, politics, spirituality and morality. Yes add in a bit more drama and action, yes have a decent pace, but each movie and (hopefully) new episode needs to have a lot more food for thought. Even with the bad Trek movies and episodes you always stopped to think about what was going on even if that alien race was cheesy or things didn't quite gel.
I'll take one and let the wolves have at the rest...
You know they couldn't scan inside of them right? It was shown explicitly twice in the film. When they were coming aboard and when they had to take one off the Enterprise and open it up to see what was inside.
EDIT:
You also saw British flags when we were in London. We still have state flags even though each state is part of a larger government.
Plus, Pike was from Mojave (see: The Cage).
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I'm sure a more intelligent Kahn would have factored that in. I mean a guy like that must be totally paranoid and would try to foresee every contingency, including Spock double-crossing him.
Those torpedoes though... So Kahn betrays Admiral Marcus, or Marcus betrays Kahn, and undoubtedly Marcus wants to liquidate Kahn. So to do this he sends the Enterprise special torpedoes just to be used for the job of snuffing out Kahn. But actually the explosives have been removed and in their stead replaced with Kahn's peoples, so was that part of Kahn's plan or was Marcus trying to help Kahn? But then why would Marcus send to the Enterprise Kahn's people if he could have killed them off back in some secured secret Starfleet location on Earth? And if the Enterprise fired ALL of the torpedoes then they would be duds as they have no explosives, so Kahn would still be alive. So...
I'll never get to the bottom of this! It's things like that which make me go so crazy!
You would think Khan would factor in the possibility that McGivers could betray him. You would think Khan would factor in the possibility that the Enterprise wasn't as damaged as he thought it was.
Khan simply underestimated Spock, "you can't break a rule, much less break a bone" (I forget the exact wording).
Khan misreading the people of the 23rd century isn't exactly a creation of Star Trek Into Darkness.
And that's the other problem. Kahn was brought out of cryogenic stasis by admiral Marcus, but Kahn is like 250 years behind the times. So why use Kahn to build the latest in new and deadly advanced weaponry? It's so insane, you try to explain away one incongruous element and several more pop up.
He explained that as well.
It wasn't about his intelligence, it was about his savagery. We know he's a quick learner from both Space Seed and The Wrath of Khan. Learning how to operate starships in a matter of hours in both.
Marcus wasn't using Khan to reinvent the wheel, he was using him to make the wheel more deadly.
It's a stretch, a stretch too many IMO, there's no real sense of context or a passage of time in this movie. So maybe if Kahn was working for Marcus and Section 31 over a period of several years maybe then Kahn would be up to speed with everything, but I don't think that was mentioned in the movie or implied.
Though I wouldn't call Kahn savage. It's more like a superiority complex and a disdain for all things ordinary. Calling Kahn savage brings to mind cavemen and lumbering trolls, plus it severely detracts from Kahn's supposed superior intellect.
So what exactly makes this movie's Kahn such a great villain? Again the movie can't seem to make up its mind or give us some hints, this movie destroyed the whole 'Kahn is a really smart cunning adversary' image given all the plot holes, so it had to fall back on this whole Kahn being some kind of super human with superhero-like abilities to endure pain, crush men's skulls with his bare hands and withstand phaser fire and Vulcan neck pinches.
This is what I currently think was happening.
Marcus had Khan developing a lot of different weapons for him. The Vengeance and the torpedoes were just two that we know of. Probably that tiny bomb that blew up the "archives" was another.
Khan had to figure out a crazy plan to outthink Marcus, because he wanted to escape with his people. Khan knew about Marcus's plan to try to start a war with the Klingons, so Khan's plan was to trick Marcus into taking advantage of circumstances to start that war.
Khan did not attack the conference on Marcus's orders. As far as Marcus knew, Khan had gone rogue, tried to kill him, and then escaped to warn the Klingons of Marcus's plan.
Khan had already provided Marcus with a loaded gun, the torpedoes. So, thinking that this was his chance to start the war he wanted, Marcus grabbed that gun, handed it to Kirk, and sent Kirk off to start the war. Rather than just taking Khan out, Marcus probably thought the torpedoes would do some hellacious damage and get the Klingons pissed and start the war. Presumably one torpedo would have been enough for that (imagine each torpedo supposedly having a trunk-full of those explosive pills that blew up the "archives"). Of course, Marcus told Kirk that the drones were just to target Khan individually.
But Khan had tricked and outsmarted Marcus. In case Marcus tried to use those torpedoes in such a manner, Khan had, unbeknownst to Marcus, loaded them up with his people to smuggle them out of Marcus's hands. They couldn't be scanned, so for all we know, perhaps they wouldn't even fire at all. Perhaps Khan had reasoned that Marcus wouldn't bring the Vengeance out in the open until the war had already started. Ergo, he would give them to a starship not under Marcus's command to fire, assuming he used them at all.
There.
Questions?
(Did I get it right?)
Marcus had Khan developing a lot of different weapons for him. The Vengeance and the torpedoes were just two that we know of. Probably that tiny bomb that blew up the "archives" was another.
Khan had to figure out a crazy plan to outthink Marcus, because he wanted to escape with his people. Khan knew about Marcus's plan to try to start a war with the Klingons, so Khan's plan was to trick Marcus into taking advantage of circumstances to start that war.
Khan did not attack the conference on Marcus's orders. As far as Marcus knew, Khan had gone rogue, tried to kill him, and then escaped to warn the Klingons of Marcus's plan.
Khan had already provided Marcus with a loaded gun, the torpedoes. So, thinking that this was his chance to start the war he wanted, Marcus grabbed that gun, handed it to Kirk, and sent Kirk off to start the war. Rather than just taking Khan out, Marcus probably thought the torpedoes would do some hellacious damage and get the Klingons pissed and start the war. Presumably one torpedo would have been enough for that (imagine each torpedo supposedly having a trunk-full of those explosive pills that blew up the "archives"). Of course, Marcus told Kirk that the drones were just to target Khan individually.
But Khan had tricked and outsmarted Marcus. In case Marcus tried to use those torpedoes in such a manner, Khan had, unbeknownst to Marcus, loaded them up with his people to smuggle them out of Marcus's hands. They couldn't be scanned, so for all we know, perhaps they wouldn't even fire at all. Perhaps Khan had reasoned that Marcus wouldn't bring the Vengeance out in the open until the war had already started. Ergo, he would give them to a starship not under Marcus's command to fire, assuming he used them at all.
There.
Questions?
(Did I get it right?)
Reading how that scene plays out in the novelisation was fantastic. I was very disappointed that the comic version didn't wander wider than the movie script. His torture was actually fairly methodical from what I recall but he just ran out of time. Even so, it would have been smarter to beam the scientists up to the Reliant to let someone else carry on the torture while Khan took care of business.
This is what I currently think was happening.
Marcus had Khan developing a lot of different weapons for him. The Vengeance and the torpedoes were just two that we know of. Probably that tiny bomb that blew up the "archives" was another.
Khan had to figure out a crazy plan to outthink Marcus, because he wanted to escape with his people. Khan knew about Marcus's plan to try to start a war with the Klingons, so Khan's plan was to trick Marcus into taking advantage of circumstances to start that war.
Khan did not attack the conference on Marcus's orders. As far as Marcus knew, Khan had gone rogue, tried to kill him, and then escaped to warn the Klingons of Marcus's plan.
Khan had already provided Marcus with a loaded gun, the torpedoes. So, thinking that this was his chance to start the war he wanted, Marcus grabbed that gun, handed it to Kirk, and sent Kirk off to start the war. Rather than just taking Khan out, Marcus probably thought the torpedoes would do some hellacious damage and get the Klingons pissed and start the war. Presumably one torpedo would have been enough for that (imagine each torpedo supposedly having a trunk-full of those explosive pills that blew up the "archives"). Of course, Marcus told Kirk that the drones were just to target Khan individually.
But Khan had tricked and outsmarted Marcus. In case Marcus tried to use those torpedoes in such a manner, Khan had, unbeknownst to Marcus, loaded them up with his people to smuggle them out of Marcus's hands. They couldn't be scanned, so for all we know, perhaps they wouldn't even fire at all. Perhaps Khan had reasoned that Marcus wouldn't bring the Vengeance out in the open until the war had already started. Ergo, he would give them to a starship not under Marcus's command to fire, assuming he used them at all.
There.
Questions?
(Did I get it right?)
But if Marcus was that intent on bumping off Kahn and starting a war, then why didn't he check these advanced torpedoes? I mean if Kahn designed them and now that Kahn had gone rogue, then Marcus would have checked or ordered someone to check to see if these torpedoes would do the job (and actually had warheads in them!).
And even if Kahn had fooled Marcus how did he secretly move 82 people out of a heavily guarded complex and into a different one, and then remove the warheads of these torpedoes and place his people in them without anyone noticing? But then if Kahn could move his people without anyone noticing, why not beam them over to some remote location (as Kahn must have the technological know-how if he really is this smart and cunning) and revive them and escape? What's with the torpedo malarkey?
It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
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