The Orb - a new DS9 podcast
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I was wondering, did any podcasts in your network talk about the Remastering that CBS-Digital is doing for TNG? I haven't listened to the show this week yet, but I have to think if DS9 ever get's remastered, that will look absolutely beautiful. In fact, my all time favorite Star Trek set was the Promenade on the station. It helped bring the station to life is so many ways, and to see that in HD will look absolutely spectacular.
On The Ready Room, in we have talked about the new blu ray sets.
I have a suggestion for The Orb. We love DS9 but acknowledge that it was not perfect. How about discussing failures, mistakes and missed opportunities?
Mine would be the failure to follow-up on the events of the episode "Hard Time." I don't believe that a person could suffer that way emotionally and not have some lasting effects.
Love the Orb and Trek.fm!!!
Mine would be the failure to follow-up on the events of the episode "Hard Time." I don't believe that a person could suffer that way emotionally and not have some lasting effects.
Love the Orb and Trek.fm!!!
I had that suggestion a few weeks ago during the "favorite episodes" episode. They will do that eventually.
Thanks so much for your support!
Finally had chance to listen to this one. It is fascinating, isn't it, to ponder all these things that almost by definition have no answer.
One aspect of the Orbs that we see in the books is what happens when all the Orbs get together. As Unity shows us, it turns out that when all nine Orbs are opened together all at the same time, they can effectively open a new entrance to the wormhole, or at least to the Prophets' continuum that lies within it.
That's something that obviously couldn't have happened on the show since we didn't get all the Orbs returned on the show. But it turns out to be vital to the resolution of "season 8"'s plot, as it returns Sisko from the Celestial Temple and swaps him for the parasite matriarch, thus saving Bajor (again).
And follow the thread backwards - it was only possible because of all the things that had happened previously in "season 8", thus leading us to questions about whether the whole thing was predetermined to save Bajor, or a handy set of coincidences, or it just looks like predestination because the Prophets can see everything that happens... all sorts of conundrums that are raised by the whole concept of prophecies.
- All 9 Orbs are there to stop the parasites and bring Sisko back from the wormhole
- Because Yevir had gone to Cardassia to find the Orbs and bring them back
- Because Yevir had visited Kasidy and been inspired by the jevonite figurine
- Because Yevir was in confusion over the Attainder he inflicted on Kira
- Because Kira had released the Ohalu book that was found at B'Hala
- And Kasidy only had the figurine because Jake had been working at B'Hala
- Because Sisko had gone to the wormhole
*mind = blown*
(Of course, I realise all of this is Lit-DS9 rather than TV-DS9, but it is on the subject of the Orbs themselves, and these days the Lit and the TV tend to blend together in my mind anyway.)
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Just shows the greatness of the Lit universe and what you can do with characters like the Prophets where time is not a limitation
New Orb about the Prophets: Gods or Aliens?
Lots to talk about there.
As I've said, I'm not religious myself, so if this were happening in the real world, I would side with "aliens."
But for the purposes of the story, my perspective - and I think part of the point - is that there is no need to choose one over the other. The two don't need to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. It's all just a matter of definition. If the Bajorans believe they are gods, then to them, they are. It doesn't make them gods to the Federation. The two views are compatible because they apply to different people.
You showed your own biases (meant in a non-confrontational sense) when you described why you question their godhood - because they are not omniscient and don't appear to have created the entire universe. So what? That's a very 21-st century Western concept of godliness. To you those are required aspects of being considered a god, but maybe they're not required for Bajorans to consider the Prophets to be gods. Just because they don't fit those two qualifications doesn't make them not divine if that's what the Bajorans believe them to be.
The Bajorans even know - objectively and scientifically - that the Prophets are a sapient race of extra-terrestrial origin who live in another space-time continuum that is accessible via an event horizon in the Denorios Belt. That still doesn't make them not gods to them. It's all just a matter of how you define divinity.
I personally always liked what seemed to be the original idea of the show - that while the Bajorans had built an entire religion and culture around the belief that the Prophets cared about them and had a plan for them, for the Prophets themselves it was all coincidental and pretty much unintentional. Up until "Emissary," they appeared not to even realise that they might have had any effect on anyone. They knew that corporeal entities existed but didn't appear to consider them worth contacting or even counting as intelligent life.
It was only after that, when we get to the "We are of Bajor" point, that it seems that the writers did intend the Prophets to be voluntarily and intentionally involved with Bajor in some way. I think the first version is perhaps more interesting conceptually, but the second version is probably easier to tell stories around.
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As I've said, I'm not religious myself, so if this were happening in the real world, I would side with "aliens."
But for the purposes of the story, my perspective - and I think part of the point - is that there is no need to choose one over the other. The two don't need to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. It's all just a matter of definition. If the Bajorans believe they are gods, then to them, they are. It doesn't make them gods to the Federation. The two views are compatible because they apply to different people.
You showed your own biases (meant in a non-confrontational sense) when you described why you question their godhood - because they are not omniscient and don't appear to have created the entire universe. So what? That's a very 21-st century Western concept of godliness. To you those are required aspects of being considered a god, but maybe they're not required for Bajorans to consider the Prophets to be gods. Just because they don't fit those two qualifications doesn't make them not divine if that's what the Bajorans believe them to be.
The Bajorans even know - objectively and scientifically - that the Prophets are a sapient race of extra-terrestrial origin who live in another space-time continuum that is accessible via an event horizon in the Denorios Belt. That still doesn't make them not gods to them. It's all just a matter of how you define divinity.
I personally always liked what seemed to be the original idea of the show - that while the Bajorans had built an entire religion and culture around the belief that the Prophets cared about them and had a plan for them, for the Prophets themselves it was all coincidental and pretty much unintentional. Up until "Emissary," they appeared not to even realise that they might have had any effect on anyone. They knew that corporeal entities existed but didn't appear to consider them worth contacting or even counting as intelligent life.
It was only after that, when we get to the "We are of Bajor" point, that it seems that the writers did intend the Prophets to be voluntarily and intentionally involved with Bajor in some way. I think the first version is perhaps more interesting conceptually, but the second version is probably easier to tell stories around.
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I do have a bias and I am the first to admit it on the show. Thank you for forgiving me it. I was answering the question from my point of view and understanding of God for sure.
Well, I only mean 'bias' in the sense of the basic assumptions that everyone begins with, that are just a function of the culture you were raised in and the personality you have. Nobody is neutral, we all have our own history and culture that we perceive the world through.
For that matter, I said 'in the real world' above. Looking at it closer, all of the above still applies to the 'real world' just as much as it does to DS9. There are a lot of similarities between the belief in a god and the belief in aliens. They're both external expressions of the same innate part of human nature - the need to believe that there is something larger than us, something else out there, that this is not all there is. It's just the same science-religion dichotomy I was talking about earlier in the thread. You might fall on one side of the line or the other, but it doesn't really matter in the long run because they're just different ways humans have found to deal with the same subjects.
In the podcast, Chris referred to the "ancient astronaut" theory - that what people perceived as gods at the time were actually visitations by alien lifeforms. Is that really so hard to believe? It's only the same as the aphorism that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic to those who don't understand it.
Look at Christ rising up into heaven. How is that different from people's accounts of alien abduction? Look at Zeus descending from Mount Olympus of a chariot of flame. How is that different from an alien spaceship coming in to land?
And look at the examples in Star Trek itself, aside from the Prophets. Christians believe God made man in his own image. How is that different from the progenitor aliens in "The Chase" ? They believe God is looking over us, guiding us, leading us on the right path, stopping us from doing bad things. How is that different from the Vulcans of Enterprise?
Again, my point is that there's no need to choose. It's not an either/or thing. They're both basically the same.
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For that matter, I said 'in the real world' above. Looking at it closer, all of the above still applies to the 'real world' just as much as it does to DS9. There are a lot of similarities between the belief in a god and the belief in aliens. They're both external expressions of the same innate part of human nature - the need to believe that there is something larger than us, something else out there, that this is not all there is. It's just the same science-religion dichotomy I was talking about earlier in the thread. You might fall on one side of the line or the other, but it doesn't really matter in the long run because they're just different ways humans have found to deal with the same subjects.
In the podcast, Chris referred to the "ancient astronaut" theory - that what people perceived as gods at the time were actually visitations by alien lifeforms. Is that really so hard to believe? It's only the same as the aphorism that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic to those who don't understand it.
Look at Christ rising up into heaven. How is that different from people's accounts of alien abduction? Look at Zeus descending from Mount Olympus of a chariot of flame. How is that different from an alien spaceship coming in to land?
And look at the examples in Star Trek itself, aside from the Prophets. Christians believe God made man in his own image. How is that different from the progenitor aliens in "The Chase" ? They believe God is looking over us, guiding us, leading us on the right path, stopping us from doing bad things. How is that different from the Vulcans of Enterprise?
Again, my point is that there's no need to choose. It's not an either/or thing. They're both basically the same.
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lvsxy808, I think for sure with the Prophets that it is more of a both/and situation. On the ideas of Christianity and similarities to other things, that is a whole other forum lol! Thanks for your thoughtful feedback, I always enjoy it!
Taking a week off because I will be at Into Darkness on our recording day! See y'all next week!
We are back this week!
Loving your discussion on the Defiant this week but I wanted to answer your question, on what were your favorite episodes that dealt with the Defiant that wasn't really Dominion Based. The first that came to mind was Children of Time, but another episode I really liked that kind of involved the Dominion but really didn't was Starship Down. You mentioned at the beginning that the Defiant was like a Submarine in space, and I think Starship Down portrayed this pretty well.
I was thinking about other episodes that you guys might not have mentioned and I don't really remember a lot of Defiant non Dominion episodes. The Visitor is a great one, but once we get into Season 5, it seemed like the Defiant really did become a warship. I was sad when it was destroyed in Season 7, but was happy it came back, kind of.
I was thinking about other episodes that you guys might not have mentioned and I don't really remember a lot of Defiant non Dominion episodes. The Visitor is a great one, but once we get into Season 5, it seemed like the Defiant really did become a warship. I was sad when it was destroyed in Season 7, but was happy it came back, kind of.
I was always a fan of the San Paulo being rechristened the Defiant. It was a nice touch and it put that ship and that crew on the level of Kirk and TOS kind of respect.
Great episode as always. I appreciated some of the selections this week, such as Second Sight, Playing God and Prodigal Daughter. For the latter, I watched that episode a few months for the first time in a long time (Mainly because I hadn't seen any Ezri episodes lately and I was on a bit of a kick) and it was a pretty good episode.
The one episode that first came to my mind when this subject was talked about was Prophet Motive. I don't know why, but I love that episode, despite it being a Ferengi show. It was fun, and it was nice to see a nicer Zek.
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