The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

[DS9Continuing]

There's a line in a Babylon 5 episode actually that says basically the same thing.

To paraphrase: "Faith and science are like the shoes on your feet. You can walk further and longer with both than you can with only one."

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[Enterpriserules]

There's a line in a Babylon 5 episode actually that says basically the same thing.

To paraphrase: "Faith and science are like the shoes on your feet. You can walk further and longer with both than you can with only one."

.

Amen!

 

[Enterpriserules]

Our newest episode is out!

 

[tomalak301]

Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.

My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.

 

[tomalak301]

Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.

My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.

Are you thinking about doing an episode where you talk about episodes that didn't necessarily work? You can still love the series but be critical and I would be interested in hearing what you guys thought DS9 could have done better.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.

My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.

Are you thinking about doing an episode where you talk about episodes that didn't necessarily work? You can still love the series but be critical and I would be interested in hearing what you guys thought DS9 could have done better.

I think that will definitely be something we do, I am sure we will do guilty pleasures as well.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Just listened to the Garak episode on the way to work this morning. It is amazing, isn't it, how there can be so much to discuss about a character who appeared in only 33 episodes out of 175 - less than a fifth. That's a testament not only to the writers, but also of course to the actor, who gave the writers reason to give him such good material.

Una and you both gave me things to think about I hadn't considered before - the link from "Second Skin" to "In the Pale Moonlight," or the effects of his relationship with Ziyal and later her death. I don't think he loved her in a romantic sense, but he certainly loved having her around as simply another Cardassian, and one who wasn't involved in all the other shenanigans Cardassians generally are. Good stuff to think about.

Onto the next one!

.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Just listened to the Garak episode on the way to work this morning. It is amazing, isn't it, how there can be so much to discuss about a character who appeared in only 33 episodes out of 175 - less than a fifth. That's a testament not only to the writers, but also of course to the actor, who gave the writers reason to give him such good material.

Una and you both gave me things to think about I hadn't considered before - the link from "Second Skin" to "In the Pale Moonlight," or the effects of his relationship with Ziyal and later her death. I don't think he loved her in a romantic sense, but he certainly loved having her around as simply another Cardassian, and one who wasn't involved in all the other shenanigans Cardassians generally are. Good stuff to think about.

Onto the next one!

.

Having Una on was a honor. As anyone can tell Garak is her favorite character so to pick her brain about this enigma was just a joy and I am glad you enjoyed it!

 

[Enterpriserules]

The new Orb is out and it's all about Worf, "One bat'leth to rule them all"!

 

[DS9Continuing]

Just listened to the Garak episode on the way to work this morning. It is amazing, isn't it, how there can be so much to discuss about a character who appeared in only 33 episodes out of 175 - less than a fifth. That's a testament not only to the writers, but also of course to the actor, who gave the writers reason to give him such good material.

Una and you both gave me things to think about I hadn't considered before - the link from "Second Skin" to "In the Pale Moonlight," or the effects of his relationship with Ziyal and later her death. I don't think he loved her in a romantic sense, but he certainly loved having her around as simply another Cardassian, and one who wasn't involved in all the other shenanigans Cardassians generally are. Good stuff to think about.

This has got me thinking now, wondering what else Garak was up to during interesting episodes where you would think he was have an interest in events but wasn't actually seen on screen. Like Una said, it's almost like there are unfilmed scenes on the cutting-room floor.

Like, for example, what did Garak do during "The Seige", when all non-Bajorans were forced to leave as a more militant Bajoran faction (very much anti-Cardassian) took control of the station? Did he just evacuate with the other civilians, or did he stay behind and try to delay the Circle's progress from his hiding place?

And what about "Destiny," when three Cardassians visited the station, one of whom was Obsidian Order? Would she have recognised him? Maybe not everyone in the Order knows everyone else. But maybe she would have, if Garak hadn't been keeping a low profile and staying out of her way. (We know from A Stitch in Time that they are aware of each other, at least by the post-war period.)

Or "The Darkness and the Light," when a Cardassian madman is trying to kill a heavily pregnant Kira. Was he secretly feeding Odo leads about who might be behind it? Was Garak one of Odo's mysterious contacts? (We know from Fearful Symmetry that Kira's attack on Gul Pirak's compound was partially thanks to the OO, so maybe they kept tabs on the survivors.)

Or just as Una said, what about "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" ? Garak must have had some interesting things to say after Bashir's genetic enhancements were revealed. And what about his discovery that Starfleet has its own Obsidian Order in the form of Section 31? Una herself dramatised that in Hollow Men, but it would have been interesting to see his reaction on the show itself.

So much to think about!

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[Enterpriserules]

It's the joy of the novels when they can fill things in well for us

 

[tomalak301]

I've always been confused about something regarding the Orbs, and considering this is brought on by today's podcast, I figured I would ask it here.

Was the Orb we first saw in Emissary actually the Orb of Prophecy and Change? They didn't name it, and according to this page they weren't identical.

I liked the concepts of the Orbs, yet it feels like they should have been featured more. I think we saw 6 of them though so maybe that was enough, but what episode did they mention how the Orbs worked. I don't remember Dax actually studying the orb (But more finding the Denorios belt).

 

[Enterpriserules]

This is from Memory Alpha

There is disagreement about whether or not this in fact was the orb first seen in "Emissary." Kai Opaka stated that the orb she showed to Sisko was the only one left in Bajoran hands (all of the others had been stolen by the Cardassians). However, this orb was never specifically named on screen. As both Sisko and Dax experienced flashbacks, not prophecies about the future like Vedek Bareil did, (DS9: "The Collaborator") this first orb may in fact have been the Orb of Memory. See Talk: Orb of Prophecy and Change.
Vedek Bareil showed Kira the third orb, specifically called the Orb of Prophecy and Change, in "The Circle." However, if no other orb was returned to the Bajorans before the events of "The Circle," then there is a contradiction of the Orb of Prophecy and Change being either the first or the third orb. Unfortunately, the portrayal of Cardassian relations makes it seem very unlikely that they would have returned any orbs before the signing of the Bajoran-Cardassian Treaty in "Life Support", unless they were able to acquire another Orb through a third party, as was the case with the Orb of Wisdom.

Dax does study it in Emissary, that is where she has her vision, in the science lab.

 

[tomalak301]

So based on what we know from the series and books now, the first orb was the Orb of Memory? That would make sense as I thought the Orb of Prophecy and Change was the one in the monastery, not the one given to the station. One would have thought the writers would have paid more attention to detail when it came to this subject, considering the two episodes are like 20 episodes apart.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Well it seemed to me from that, since there is no other orb we see that it is P&C. But it does seem to be one of the things that the writers did not pay as much attention to as they should have early.

From Memory Alpha again

The article doesn't seem to fit the description of the Orb that was given to Sisko in the pilot. The article Wikipedia:Tears of the Prophets mentions the Orb of Memory. Both Sisko and Dax experienced flashbacks, not prophecies about the future.

I don't see any information or articles concerning the unnamed orb that brought Dax from the wormhole back to the station, let alone any mention on screen.

So, not counting the Orb of the Emissary, there were ten orbs (eight of which the Cardassians still had):

The Orb of Memory, the first one handed to Sisko by Kai Opaka (DS9: "Emissary")
The unnamed orb that brought Dax to the station (DS9: "Emissary")
The Orb of Wisdom that the Grand Nagus procured from the Cardassians and was going to sell to the Bajorans (DS9: "Prophet Motive")
The Orb of Time, given back by the civilian Detapa Council (DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations")
The Orb of Contemplation that Dax consulted before killed by Dukat-- can't find any info on where this one came from. ("Tears of the Prophets")
-- Robhmac 22:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's see now.
Kai Opaka specifically calls it the Orb of Prophecy and Change in ""Emissary"", therefore that is canon. Live with it, it was an early episode in the series, they were still figuring things out.
Opaka never gives the orb a name, unless you want to count "the Tear of the Prophet". I just ran through that whole scene. I still insist that unless anything onscreen contradicts, this matches the description of the Orb of Memory. Robhmac 04:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
What unnamed orb that Dax brought back? She was sent out of the wormhole inside something that looked like an orb, but when it was beamed aboard the station, it went *poof* and transformed into her. I don't remember her carrying any other orb with her back.
You are absolutely right on this one. It was an orb that brought Dax back, but it did go poof, and Dax was not shown carrying it. It was never mentioned, so yes it must have transformed into Dax. Robhmac 04:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
So yeah, I guess what I am saying is that no, you cannot make the change you are proposing, as it would violate stated canon. Hope that helps. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed "as well as being the first sent to the Bajoran people". I just watched that scene again and Kai Opaka never claims that this was the first orb to be sent to the Bajorans, only that "nine orbs, like this one" had appeared and that the Cardassians took the others. I'm not sure how the second paragraph of background information would still make sense now, but I'll leave that alone for now. - Defstar 23:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 

[DS9Continuing]

The Orb of Memory, the first one handed to Sisko by Kai Opaka (DS9: "Emissary")
The unnamed orb that brought Dax to the station (DS9: "Emissary")
The Orb of Wisdom that the Grand Nagus procured from the Cardassians and was going to sell to the Bajorans (DS9: "Prophet Motive")
The Orb of Time, given back by the civilian Detapa Council (DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations")
The Orb of Contemplation that Dax consulted before killed by Dukat-- can't find any info on where this one came from. ("Tears of the Prophets")

I was always under the impression that the Orb from "Emissary" was indeed Prophecy, not Memory, as I thought Opaka specifically said so. While it's true that what we see on screen does seem to fit with the concept of Memory more than Prophecy, I'm sure it was explicitly said to be Prophecy, so that's what it is.

If we go by the novels, which I'm sure would have been thoroughly researched before they went to print, then Memory was not returned to Bajor until Avatar, when it was discovered on an adrift freighter ship where it had been lost for years. And then the four remaining ones returned in Cathedral were Unity, Destiny, Souls and Truth. According to the short story "The Orb of Opportunity" in the Prophecy and Change collection, Contemplation was returned some time after "Life Support" in the spirit of the new B/C peace treaty that was signed then.

So that makes nine - Prophecy, Memory, Time, Wisdom, Unity, Destiny, Souls, Truth and Contemplation.

I agree that the Orb that returns Dax from the wormhole doesn't count, and was not a "true" Orb, just a transport mechanism. (The same mechanism is used to return Kira from the wormhole in The Soul Key.) I wonder if the Orb of the Emissary was similar - it seemed to disappear after Sarah was released from it, so in that sense, it also wouldn't count as a "true" Orb.

I've always had a theory that the Orbs are actually solidified Prophets, in some way. In the same way that the Orb of the Emissary seems to in fact be Sarah, perhaps when you have an Orb encounter, you are literally talking to a Prophet, and they each have their own personalities, which lead to the different qualities associated with each Orb.

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[Enterpriserules]

We talk about that on the episode, that in some way the Orbs have the essence or spirit of the Prophets and that is what makes them "work"

 

[DS9Continuing]

Ah, okay. Only up to Worf so far...

 

[Enterpriserules]

Ah, okay. Only up to Worf so far...

Thanks for listening!