STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Hartzilla2007]

I would never have thought of that.. because I remember what dicks Khan's super men were in Space Seed, TWOK and the Eugenics War books

Heck even the movie points that out by Spock pointing out that Khan and his people tried to kill everyone they thought was inferior.

Do any of you know if Hendorff and the black security guard survived the battle on Kronos? I was trying to see if they showed up during the battle but I lost them and I didn't see them back on the Enterprise.

I don't think Hendorff survived. Of course, my only source on that is the novelization.

I wouldn't trust the novelization remember the one for Star Trek (2009) had Nero kill Ayel after the destruction of Vulcan whereas Kirk killed him near the end of the film.

 

[flemm]

Indeed - and as you say even TOS wasn't doing anything truly radical, only radical for prime time network tv.

Well, being "radical" and "being intelligent" aren't really the same thing. Popular entertainment is generally not the place to go, obviously, to really be challenged intellectually (unless you are talking about understanding how it functions from an analytical point of view, which is as challenging as understanding any complex social phenomenon).

I think, a lot of the time, when fans talk about Star Trek being "intelligent," what they are really saying is: it is a fictional universe that tends to capture the imagination of some intelligent people, or, alternately, "it appeals to their intellect." It's nerd fantasy fulfillment, in a lot of ways, and I don't mean that in a pejorative way, or at least not only.

Part of that is the "exploration" aspect, I think. Conceptually, it's a franchise that's built around the discovery of new worlds, civilizations, etc., for example, rather than just beating the bad guy. That's appealing to the intellect, even if, concretely, what you end up "exploring" isn't really all that compelling at the end of the day, or new, or radical. Sometimes it is comically *not* new or interesting, but the *idea* of exploring "the final frontier" is still really compelling *as an idea*.

Often watching old TOS episodes cracks me up because the "alien" planet is about the most non-alien looking place imaginable. But the idea is still fun.

Also, a lot of times "intelligent" in this type of blockbuster really means something like "not egregiously or insultingly stupid," which is certainly a positive. I do my serious thinking during the day at work, but that doesn't mean I want my entertainment to take a crap in my brain, so to speak. At least not always.

Anyway, this movie was fine from that point of view, as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't mind a future movie focusing a bit more on the exploration angle, though I recognize that structure probably fits the tv format better.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Indeed - and as you say even TOS wasn't doing anything truly radical, only radical for prime time network tv.

Well, being "radical" and "being intelligent" aren't really the same thing. Popular entertainment is generally not the place to go, obviously, to really be challenged intellectually (unless you are talking about understanding how it functions from an analytical point of view, which is as challenging as understanding any complex social phenomenon).

I think, a lot of the time, when fans talk about Star Trek being "intelligent," what they are really saying is: it is a fictional universe that tends to capture the imagination of some intelligent people, or, alternately, "it appeals to their intellect." It's nerd fantasy fulfillment, in a lot of ways, and I don't mean that in a pejorative way, or at least not only.

Part of that is the "exploration" aspect, I think. Conceptually, it's a franchise that's built around the discovery of new worlds, civilizations, etc., for example, rather than just beating the bad guy, or whatever. That's appealing to the intellect, even if, concretely, what you end up "exploring" isn't really all that compelling at the end of the day, or new, or radical. Sometimes it is comically *not* new or interesting, but the *idea* of exploring "the final frontier" is still really compelling *as an idea*.

Often watching old TOS episodes cracks me up because the "alien" planet is about the most non-alien looking place imaginable. But the idea is still fun.

Also, a lot of times "intelligent" in this type of blockbuster really means something like "not egregiously or insultingly stupid," which is certainly a positive. I do my serious thinking during the day at work, but that doesn't mean I want my entertainment to take a crap in my brain, so to speak. At least not always.

Anyway, this movie was fine from that point of view, as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't mind a future movie focusing a bit more on the exploration angle, though I recognize that structure probably fits the tv format better.

Co-sign. There's a lot of wisdom to what you just wrote. Thanks, you put it in better terms than I ever could.

 

[M'Sharak]

I just don't think it was done well.

It was done a hell of a lot better than painting two guys half-white and half-black, that much is certain.

The guys making these movies now sure don't have anything to fear from comparison to most of oldTrek.

I don't think "Let that be your last Battlefield" was childish, if you are suggesting that. Because it is supposed to show the absurdity of the argument, by doing something simple. If you think it's dated in terms of make-up, it was a shoestring budget and 45 years ago.

I really can't say that I see where Buzzkill was suggesting that LTBYLB was childish—that would seem to be your own inference—but can we please dispense with the "shoestring budget" canard? For its first two seasons, "Star Trek" was one of the most expensive series at that time being produced, and the cutbacks of the third season still brought them nowhere near "shoestring budget" territory.

 

[mattman8907]

was it my imagination or during Urban's speech on the planetoid, I could've sword i heard DeForest Kelley's voice emulating through Karl Urban? it was during "his little pregnant gorn" spiel.

 

[flemm]

I want to be clear here - I keep bringing up TMP because I think it's the only movie which managed to do what some of the best Trek episodes did, even though it had strytelling problems. Even TWOK was a personal story, not one with anything cerebral in it.

One other point on this topic: I guess I'm not sure what people mean, exactly, when they talk about something being "cerebral."

I mean, is Don Quixote cerebral? Is Hamlet? I choose these examples because they are stories that have been massively influential, shaped our view of what it means to be an individual, and challenged people intellectually for centuries. But I'm not sure if I'd call them "cerebral," or at least not mainly.

I don't think it works like that. Engaging with a story intellectually has a lot to do with the intellect doing the engaging.

I mean, there are tv commercials that are worth engaging intellectually. Doesn't make them "cerebral," in and of themselves.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[gomtuu20]

I wasn't a fan of 2009 Trek. While I still hate the lens flairs and the shaky camera work that looks like a drunk cameraman with Parkinsons put the camera in a paint shaker, tied it to a rope, and swing it around his head during an earthquake, I thought this one was much better than the last one. Reviving Kirk with Khan's blood was ridiculous, but overall this is a good installment. I enjoyed it very much. I give it an A-.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I associate cerebral with colder sci fi, like Space 2001.

 

[HaventGotALife]

It was done a hell of a lot better than painting two guys half-white and half-black, that much is certain.

The guys making these movies now sure don't have anything to fear from comparison to most of oldTrek.

I don't think "Let that be your last Battlefield" was childish, if you are suggesting that. Because it is supposed to show the absurdity of the argument, by doing something simple. If you think it's dated in terms of make-up, it was a shoestring budget and 45 years ago.

I really can't say that I see where Buzzkill was suggesting that LTBYLB was childish—that would seem to be your own inference—but can we please dispense with the "shoestring budget" canard? For its first two seasons, "Star Trek" was one of the most expensive series at that time being produced, and the cutbacks of the third season still brought them nowhere near "shoestring budget" territory.

Source? I have about 10 that say that Star Trek had a restricted budget and was losing money to the point that Paramount tried to sell it to Gene Roddenberry, but it was too expensive for Roddenberry to purchase (about 150,000 dollars). It wasn't a wanted property, despite it having ratings that would make it the number one television show on television today.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I associate cerebral with colder sci fi, like Space 2001.

I assume you're talking about 2001: A Space Odyssey, and not Space: 1999.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I associate cerebral with colder sci fi, like Space 2001.

I assume you're talking about 2001: A Space Odyssey, and not Space: 1999.

My god I'm so stupid. Yes

 

[Amaris]

I don't think "Let that be your last Battlefield" was childish, if you are suggesting that. Because it is supposed to show the absurdity of the argument, by doing something simple. If you think it's dated in terms of make-up, it was a shoestring budget and 45 years ago.

I really can't say that I see where Buzzkill was suggesting that LTBYLB was childish—that would seem to be your own inference—but can we please dispense with the "shoestring budget" canard? For its first two seasons, "Star Trek" was one of the most expensive series at that time being produced, and the cutbacks of the third season still brought them nowhere near "shoestring budget" territory.

Source? I have about 10 that say that Star Trek had a restricted budget and was losing money to the point that Paramount tried to sell it to Gene Roddenberry, but it was too expensive for Roddenberry to purchase (about 150,000 dollars). It wasn't a wanted property, despite it having ratings that would make it the number one television show on television today.

According to Memory Alpha:

TOS Season 1 had a $190,635 budget per episode.
TOS Season 2 had a $185,000 budget per episode (some episodes ran even higher. "City" ran over 250k).
TOS Season 3 had a $180,000 budget per episode, which was the lowest budget during TOS' run.

If we adjust those 1967-1968-1969 figures for today, that means:

Each S1 episode had a 1.37 million dollar budget.
Each S2 episode had a 1.28 million dollar budget.
Each S3 episode had a 1.14 million dollar budget.

That's an expensive pair of shoestrings.

 

[gomtuu20]

Into Darkness has given me high hopes for the next installment.

So much of what I loved about the original series was the exploration. Experiencing new worlds and cultures while learning things about our own. Learning things about what it means to be a human. And doing it with the best crew.

For some bizarre reason, the original cast movies thought the appeal was always having an inexperienced crew and a.
"not-quite-complete" Enterprise. I had high hopes at the end of 4 when they walked on the bridge of the new Enterprise. But then they let Shatner direct.

The Next Gen movies could not do anything but fight villains. This became stale.

Would't it be nice if the drama in the next movie were to come from encountering a strange, new world rather than just fighting another villain?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Would't it be nice if the drama in the next movie were to come from encountering a strange, new world rather than just fighting another villain?

That would be lovely. Aint gonna happen.

 

[Similitude]

Absolutely loved, seen 2x already!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The poll just hit 100 A+'s!

(I gave it an A)

 

[throwback]

For those wanted an example of what I am talking about, here are two:

http://http://www.swiftfilm.com/par...nal-focus-groups-for-star-trek-into-darkness/

http://www.inquisitr.com/659009/star-trek-into-darkness-opens-strong-overseas/

While writing this, I was thinking about something that occurred to me while watching this film. The hero characters are told three different accounts about one man - one from the man himself, one from the man who hired him, and one from someone who was his enemy in another universe. Yet, at no point in the film, do the hero characters go to a computer and do historical research. They push for the witnesses to prove what they are saying. Constantly, in the Classic Trek, the characters would be shown doing research. I would have liked to seen this research in the new film.

 

[mattman8907]

The poll just hit 100 A+'s!

(I gave it an A)

i gave it an A as well but i still can't believe people gave it an F but those must have been the ten most die hard Trekkie fans.

 

[Amaris]

The poll just hit 100 A+'s!

(I gave it an A)

i gave it an A as well but i still can't believe people gave it an F but those must have been the ten most die hard Trekkie fans.

"Die hard" has nothing to do with it. I'm a hardcore Trek fan, have been since I was 4 (I'm 33 now), and I gave it an "A+."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I wish they would die hard, yes.

JOKE!!!!! Seriously I see those names and a lot of them had already failed this movie before it came out.