STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Tiberius]

Oops.

 

[ConRefit79]

This is Die Hard in space and a blatant rip-off of an earlier Star Trek film that even now stands the test of time in terms of story and spectacle - for this reason alone I cannot forgive this film. It's fanwank from production people who aren't fans but thought they knew what fans wanted but who also know that 95% of the target audience won't know anything about the film this is ripped off from.

This is what I thought would happen.
And its not the first time.They tried to rip off ST:TWOK in Nemesis. Only it came off like Generations.

The best I can hope for is it will lead new fans to watch TWOK. Maybe then they will demand better quality stories in the future and not mindless action and FX.

 

[trevanian]

Well, to my ears, for someone to say that Starfleet has to militarized it sounds wrong. Starfleet is already the military. For me, it's like going from zero to ten, when Starfleet is already a ten, so to speak.

Yeah, and even going back to the original TWOK, Carol sez Starfleet has kept the peace for a century. So that would indicate they kept the peace in the LensFlareUniverse at least up until Kirk's birth, right? To do that, they HAD to be military, as talking tough and waving rolled up pieces of paper would not have sufficed.

 

[anotherdemon]

I don't see it as a ripoff from a previous film -- some bits of TWoK are there (some even scene for scene, but they're small scenes from the whole), but they aren't important to the overall story. In fact, Khan isn't even that important other than being a vessel to be used [and abused] for the main protagonists.

It's far closer to the story of Wing Commander 4 (which isn't a bad story to be like), i.e., certain elements in Starfleet want to change it into something that will be better served in a violent galaxy [and beyond].

 

[anotherdemon]

Starfleet can defend itself and its holdings for the most part, but what of the next Narada that shows up? Picard and Kirk pull off flukes via circumstance, and you don't want to rely on that. A whole planet just got wiped out in the previous film, and Starfleet couldn't do a thing to stop it. Enter Section 31 and its new designs for Starfleet.

 

[trevanian]

To me, Spock yelling it seems like it would be one of the most emotionally poignant parts of the movie. It doesn't deserve comparison to the cheesy version, even if the writers invited it. There's far more gravitas this time. It's sincere. It conveys true pain and loathing.

The problem is that there's no real gravitas to the scene at all. The whole thing comes off as either bad fanfic or a parody IMO, and there's just not the same level of attachment to the characters. It's undercut further by the blatently telegraphed cheat out of the situation.

I rewatched WoK a few days ago and, even having seen it many times, Spock's demise still got to me. This scene just made me want to laugh all the way through out of the sheer audacious ridiculousness of it all.

I just rewatched SFS and TWOK recently (in that order, so as to feel like I was going somewhere) and Spock's death does still work for me too. Probably better than it did when there was such hype and baggage attached to it. And you know what really shows me how right they got it the first time? It is what I call being Python-proof.

If you watch LIFE OF BRIAN and then see LAST TEMPTATION, you find yourself laughing at 'blessed are the ... ' because you're thinking 'cheesemakers' not 'peacemakers.' Certain bit of knowledge or spin can ruin a movie moment forever.

By way of comparison, when I first read about the idea of Spock bleeding green on the glass at the end of TWOK and why it wasn't used, it made me think I'd never be able to see the scene again without howling with laughter. But it doesn't take me out of the scene, which means it must be pretty damn near bulletproof.

(in case you didn't know, they were really concerned about green blood on his hand on the glass might be corny, and everybody was tense about doing the scene anyway. So they're ready, and Nimoy has the glove off so the green blood can be applied ... and up comes the makeup guy. PLOOMF! He uses a PANCAKE of makeup on Nimoy, leaving his entire hand green, then walks off. Obviously didn't get it, and at that point they abandoned the idea. And Nimoy points out that the guy had been working THE INCREDIBLE HULK for years, so you can kind of understand his goof. But when you freeze frame on Spock w/ his hand on the glass, the story makes you picture a photoshop job with a trickle of green - which WOULD have worked -- or the big green hulk hand, and the latter makes you think you could never watch the scene with a straight face again. And you'd be as wrong as I was.)

 

[M'Sharak]

In terms of story telling, I thought it was pretty weak. I'll probably end up having a bit of a rant, so long post ahead. Also, spoilers.

First of all, we've got that black guy with the sick daughter. What was the point of that? What did that entire sequence accomplish? The only things it did was to establish that Khan's blood could (somehow, it was never properly explained) cure illnesses, and that there was a bombing. None of this needed that family that we never saw again. The "Khan's blood is a magical cure" bit was better explained by the tribble sequence. And as for the bombing? Why did Khan go to all the trouble of having this guy plant the bomb if Khan was going to actually be there in the aftermath (as Kirk saw in the meeting)? Instead of going to all this pointless storytelling, just have Khan sneak in, showing how clever he is. Get's caught, has to fight a few guards (showing how strong he is). Plants the bomb, blows the place up. Establishes his character, shows his intelligence and strength. Sure, it doesn't do the "blood is a cure to whatever disease you might have" thing, but that was explained later in the movie anyway.

If you'd paid attention you'd have noticed that all this ties in with the theme "what would you do for your family".



Again you weren't paying attention. Marcus gave Kirk the Enterprise back, because he thought he could use the hot-head youngster as the perfect fall-guy for his war-plans.



This wouldn't make much sense.
Marcus operates from a position of strength. Why would he sacrifice that position by placing himself in the centre of things?
He tries to use Kirk and the Enterprise to instigate his war with the Klingons.



Who says this is Kirk's movie alone?
Besides, they killed the villain last time, and people where complaining.
Now the keep Khan alive, and people start complaining about that.

And that big ship, Vengeance or whatever... That was the biggest fanwank I;ve ever seen.

It's a warship built for Marcus' planned war against the Klingons. What's so fanwank-y about it?

I've just seen the moderation intervention directed at me, in addition to you, for the narky tone you took with my review and someone else's post.

After you were asked to desist from disrupting the thread with bickering and sniping, this continuation earns you a warning for trolling. Comments to PM, if you please.

 

[Jon1701]

Just watched it last night.

Is it possible to enjoy a film and yet not like it at the same time?

It was right on the edge of what you would expect of a Star Trek film. It was still a Star Trek film. Just.

This really is the Summer-movie blockbuster version of Star Trek. There is a lot to like about this movie - they really took it to another level and they almost got away with it. I can forgive them playing loose with canon, treknology and the odd co-incidence and gap in logic as the movie was pretty enjoyable.

But...

The "death sequence" was right on the line of acceptability (I like the idea of a role reversal and I don't mind them riffing on the original scene if done right) but "that line" from Spock stepped right over it.

Really?????

That was too much. That was a mistake. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I mean, the entire sequence is supposed to tap into the emotional notes that the first movie hit but it just left me cold. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel emotional about a scene that plays almost word-for-word like the original. Not in a million trillion years are they going to kill off Kirk. The "magic blood" was so obvious it was running through my head as Kirk drew his last breath.

I liked the dude on the bridge with a hole in his head and I liked that the gold skinned chick got a line of dialogue. Pine and Quinto were good. Eve showed promise. Cumberbatch was incredible.

Overall - I liked it as a film, but not as a Star Trek one. Maybe. I dunno. Trust me, this film will leave a lot of people scratching their heads.

Also - something was changed in the edit at the end of the film. One year later? What the hell was that all about - it doesn't feel like one year later on the bridge. All that "nice of you to join the crew" business with Marcus. It feels like originally it was going to be 6 weeks later or something and then they changed it to a year to give them time to rebuild the Enterprise.

Thats a minor niggle. The major ones hurt more. More than ever this films convinced me that trek needs to come back to TV.

 

[Deck 1 - Bridge]

If you'd paid attention you'd have noticed that all this ties in with the theme "what would you do for your family".



Again you weren't paying attention. Marcus gave Kirk the Enterprise back, because he thought he could use the hot-head youngster as the perfect fall-guy for his war-plans.



This wouldn't make much sense.
Marcus operates from a position of strength. Why would he sacrifice that position by placing himself in the centre of things?
He tries to use Kirk and the Enterprise to instigate his war with the Klingons.



Who says this is Kirk's movie alone?
Besides, they killed the villain last time, and people where complaining.
Now the keep Khan alive, and people start complaining about that.




It's a warship built for Marcus' planned war against the Klingons. What's so fanwank-y about it?

I've just seen the moderation intervention directed at me, in addition to you, for the narky tone you took with my review and someone else's post.

After you were asked to desist from disrupting the thread with bickering and sniping, this continuation earns you a warning for trolling. Comments to PM, if you please.

LOL!!

 

[Borgminister]

Um... this isn't PM, sir...

 

[Commishsleer]

This thread is making me feel sorry for JJ (and its pretty hard to feel sorry for the director/producer of 3 Star Trek and Star Wars films).
He attempts to fix many of the complaints made by fans for the previous film - eg Kirk gets command to early, the characters don't match TOS. He gives a thousand nods to Star Trek and TOS and he get Leonard Nimoy to appear in another movie. And people complain its too much like TWOK, its too full of fanwankery, too full of pretty SFX.

Even if you don't like it, you have to appreciate the effort to please the die hard fans.

Well I suppose we wouldn't be Star Trek fans if we weren't constantly nitpicking and complaining. Myself included. LOL

 

[Therin of Andor]

McCoy birthing Gorn triplets?

Octuplets, IIRC.

 

[Deck 1 - Bridge]

Um... this isn't PM, sir...

Thinking aloud......

On the basis of me getting an infraction previously for apparently continuing something that I wasn't, then you should get a warning to, which you won't so a PM would be pointless. I must refrain from having an opinion, silly old me!

 

[Borgminister]

Trying to help, really...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If Khan's blood is so regenerative as to bring Kirk's irradiated to death body back to complete health then why did Marla McGivers die?

 

[I am not Spock]

Starfleet is the military. Let's not kid ourselves. When the Borg or the Dominion come a knocking, who is there defending the planet? Starfleet, that's who.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If Khan's blood is so regenerative as to bring Kirk's irradiated to death body back to complete health then why did Marla McGivers die?

A Ceti eel ate her brain.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

They've killed twenty of my people, including my beloved wife. Oh, not all at once and not instantly, to be sure. Their young enter through the ears and wrap themselves around the cerebral cortex. This has the effect of rendering the victim extremely susceptible to suggestion. Later, as they grow, follows madness, paralysis -- and death.

Plenty of time for a transfusion.

 

[Gepard]

Maybe Augment blood can't stop Ceti eels? He does say in that same scene that they killed 20 of his people.

(I can't believe that, out of all of the potential objections, people are focusing on a continuity error between films separated by 30 years, rather than this being yet another dumbass get-out-of-death-free reset button. For Pete's sake, can't anyone in Star Trek stay dead?)

 

[Therin of Andor]

Plenty of time for a transfusion.

So, you reverse the death, and maybe the paralysis, but the madness might be irreversible. Certainly even Khan's madness wasn't.