Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

[sonak]

Baku is a planet in Federation space but it is not a member of the Federation. This is probably fairly common, after all the Feds don't force anybody to join their club.

I think the main point of the posters who think that Picard made an error is that there is a resource of enormous value which should be shared with everybody. I agree, it is not okay than only a few hundred people should gain from a "fountain of youth". But it is neither okay to just steal it from them as the Sona and Federation tried to.

And it is certainly not OK to judge the way of life of any of those numerous lifeforms out there. That's just Prime Directive 101. The Klingons are bloodthirsty predators and we certainly defend ourselves against them but we don't force our ethics down their throat. Biological fundamentals matter, it is very unlikely that such a predator creature would ever join the UFP. Thankfully even the Klingons have a hunch about the Prime Directive, the understand that there aren't just noble warriors like themselves but also coward weaklings out there and while they claim that today is a good day to die they are not that eager to do total war.

Same applies for a bunch of hippies. Not our job to judge them and they definitely don't harm us. But making an alliance with a bunch of "petty thugs" that stab you in the back at the first chance they get just in order to gain an ally in the Dominion War? That's just suicidally idiotic.

I don't mind criticism of the movie, its script is certainly not perfect. But denying what happened on the screen and pretending that fair is foul and foul is fair, that the hippies are wicked resource stealers who don't wanna share (ehm, nobody asked them) whereas the Sona are decent folks is simply factually wrong.

The movie as it stands is a simple morality tale and as FKnight has pointed out there are no options anyway, the Feds have to obey the Prime Directive. And before a big discussion about the Prime Directive starts, I like to watch and talk about Trek. The real Trek, not a hypothetical Mirror Universe Trek where the Sona are our lovely new allies and the Prime Directive doesn't exist.

1. The Prime Directive actually goes against your argument here. If you're invoking the PD then the Son'a should be able to handle the Baku themselves

2. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, there is ZERO on-screen evidence that the Son'a were going to betray the Federation. This keeps getting brought up, and let's just resolve it right here: what evidence from the movie do you have on this? The Son'a spent MONTHS following the Federation's lead on this, going along with a plan that they didn't even like, just to be cooperative. They ONLY turned against the Federation after Picard sabotaged the plan. Enough with the "the son'a were going to betray them!" nonsense. It's the SON'A WHO WERE BETRAYED!

3. The Baku had been living on that planet for three centuries, never telling anyone else what they'd found. The perfectly logical conclusion from this is that they didn't care at all to bring this revolutionary resource to the rest of the galaxy, therefore it makes perfect sense to conclude that they are utterly selfish and self-centered.

 

[DonIago]

Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?

Because it seems to me that that's effectively what's going on here - the Baku have access to a technology that could be used to help others' suffering and will not share it.

The "they were never asked to share it" argument is bollocks because even if they were never asked previously they certainly become aware of the situation during the events of the film. And if we're going to look at this from a moral standpoint, morally I think it's quite acceptable to offer to help suffering people rather than waiting for them to ask you.

In short I believe this boils down to either weak writing or the Baku not being the type of people the Feds should necessarily be setting out to defend.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?

So Kirk should have invaded and conquered the Halkans to get the dilithium they didn't want to give the federation because they were pacifists is basically what you are saying.

Because thats basically the same principal as its just the some more dirty hippies who don't want to share their awesome resource with the mighty federation don't deserve to keep it argument.

And yet Kirk did not do this.

Or heck lets look at Kodos the Executioner all he was doing was killing all those selfish people who didn't want to starve to death so the people he decided to let live would have food, so obviously needs of the many and all that jazz

 

[sonak]

Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?

So Kirk should have invaded and conquered the Halkans to get the dilithium they didn't want to give the federation because they were pacifists is basically what you are saying.

Because thats basically the same principal as its just the some more dirty hippies who don't want to share their awesome resource with the mighty federation don't deserve to keep it argument.

And yet Kirk did not do this.

Or heck lets look at Kodos the Executioner all he was doing was killing all those selfish people who didn't want to starve to death so the people he decided to let live would have food, so obviously needs of the many and all that jazz

The question wasn't directed at me, but...

I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat, which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS. The situation with Kodos was not analogous.

Also, even if the Federation isn't willing to take it themselves, that's a FAR CRY from actually taking on the responsibility of DEFENDING these selfish hypocrites, which is what we see in the movie.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,

Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.

No it really wasn't.

 

[DonIago]

No, Kirk shouldn't have stolen dilithium from the Halkans. But what happens when a hostile power comes knocking on their door? Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point? Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.

 

[sonak]

I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,

Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.

No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.

Contrast what Sisko did in "in the pale moonlight," where his actions cost millions of Romulan lives to win the war, with the moral absurdities of "Insurrection," where Picard refuses to MOVE 600 people to help win the war.


At any rate, as has been shown in this thread, the Baku are doomed either way. If it's not a Federation planet, then the PD means the Son'a remove the Baku any way, so I don't really see what you're arguing here?


whether the Federation removes the Baku themselves and gets the particles, OR they get them after the Son'a do it, it's an academic distinction.

 

[R. Star]

It really comes down to the fact that the script says they're the good guys and the Baku are the innocent victims. As for the plot not making sense in some places, and making the so called good guys look bad in others.... kinda like the Wizard of Oz... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. And some people seem to buy that.

 

[MacLeod]

So you have a planet that's within Federation space but not a member of the Federation. You have a race which isn't part of the Federation but want's to travel to that planet, would it not be polite to ask the Federation permission to traverse their space? The Federation of course would ask why to you want to go there, and perhaps Federation invovlment started there.

 

[sonak]

So you have a planet that's within Federation space but not a member of the Federation. You have a race which isn't part of the Federation but want's to travel to that planet, would it not be polite to ask the Federation permission to traverse their space? The Federation of course would ask why to you want to go there, and perhaps Federation invovlment started there.

sure, but if the Son'a tell them the truth, then the Federation's going to decide that it's a PD issue, and an internal conflict between the Son'a and the Baku.(Picard HIMSELF calls it a "blood feud.") There response SHOULD BE "do whatever you want, not our problem, we'll be happy to keep this secret between us and we'll buy your particles that you get from this."

So either the Son'a are incredibly stupid for not just telling the Federation the truth, OR WE'RE MEANT TO THINK IT'S REGARDED AS A FEDERATION PLANET. Otherwise, the Son'a-UFP partnership makes no sense.


Again, the movie's premise is just unsalvageable. At least it is when you throw in the Son'a-Baku relationship. The Baku, as written, are a doomed society either way UNLESS the Federation is willing to just permanently defend them in violation of the PD for no real reason, while getting NOTHING from the Baku.

 

[MacLeod]

I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,

Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.

No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.

It is the case because your precious particles had f@#k all to do with ending the war or any affect on the war for that matter.

Seriously in all of the episodes of DS9 during the Dominion War just when exactly has anything that needed those magic particles come up.

Hell during the freaking movie they only mentioned living longer as an effect they never mentioned any military benefits, and we don't even know if the war was still going on at that point.

 

[sonak]

I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.

er, I guess I don't understand your point. So the Federation finds out what they're doing.


OK, so what? It still either comes down to a PD issue or it's Federation territory. Either way, how does it affect things if the Federation investigates?

 

[sonak]

Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.

It is the case because your precious particles had f@#k all to do with ending the war or any affect on the war for that matter.

Seriously in all of the episodes of DS9 during the Dominion War just when exactly has anything that needed those magic particles come up.

Hell during the freaking movie they only mentioned living longer as an effect they never mentioned any military benefits, and we don't even know if the war was still going on at that point.

actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles. And of course DS9 didn't bring up the particles, PICARD TURNED THE SON'A INTO AN ENEMY! Plus, it was a different show, so why would DS9 bring up the TNG movie franchise?


at any rate, it still doesn't matter. The Baku lose either way.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point?

Probably not but he would do it anyway because it's James T. Kirk were talking about he does the right thing not the politically convenient thing.

Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

Depends if its the Klingons yeah they kind of will because they don't want the Klingons to have the crystals either.

Not to mention if the planet is being attacked they're not going to let themselves get blown up or shot so I would expect them to defend themselves.

IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.

How about not committing mass murder thats a good option.

actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles.

So immortality obsessed man child is the entire reason for that argument. yeah lets go with that guy instead of onscreen evidence that the particles don't really amount to much in the grad scheme of things.

 

[MacLeod]

I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.

er, I guess I don't understand your point. So the Federation finds out what they're doing.


OK, so what? It still either comes down to a PD issue or it's Federation territory. Either way, how does it affect things if the Federation investigates?

So the Son'a don't ask for the Federation for permission to traverse their space and enter Federation space, Starfleet would no doubt send a ship to intercept the Son'a vessel to ask what they are doing. So now not only are they suspected of supplying your enemy during a time of war, they are invading your space. Whilst the Federation might not be as territorial in defending it's borders as say the Romulan's. In a time of war your are going to be more aware/circumspect about border incursions.

 

[R. Star]

DOUGHERTY With metaphasics, lifespans will be doubled... an entire new medical science will evolve... (beat) I understand your Chief Engineer has the use of his eyes for the first time in his life... would you take his sight away from him?

Putting aside the doubled lifespans, if just normal exposure can magically heal Geordi's eyes the concentrated stuff's potential would be extraordinary. When you probably have hundreds of hospitals across dozens of planets and bases full of casualties from the war, that seems like a pertinent need.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

DOUGHERTY With metaphasics, lifespans will be doubled... an entire new medical science will evolve... (beat) I understand your Chief Engineer has the use of his eyes for the first time in his life... would you take his sight away from him?

Putting aside the doubled lifespans, if just normal exposure can magically heal Geordi's eyes the concentrated stuff's potential would be extraordinary. When you probably have hundreds of hospitals across dozens of planets and bases full of casualties from the war, that seems like a pertinent need.

Considering its doubled lifespans instead of immortality it actually sounds like a a watered down version of the radiation is the end result and seeing as the all natural immortality granting version can't heal wounds the watered down sounding version that will only double a lifespan probably wouldn't either.

Besides most casualties in the war suffered from the untreatabl;e condition known as death in all its varied forms like death from being blow up when the ships is destroyed, or death from exploding console and/or (surprisingly) rock filled walls, or death by vaporization, or death by whatever the hell those automatic energy weapons the Jem'Hadar use are, or ect.

So not seeing how it helps and no most of the battles shown were space battles so that probably wasn't the minority of combat.

 

[R. Star]

Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death, most of the battles shown, doesn't mean most of the battles that happened. When the Jem'Hadar are attacking and occupying entire worlds like Betazed, that's where most of your casualties are going to come from. So a series of AR-558, the Ship and Nor the Battle to the Strong scenarios. And casualties in those battles did not instantly equal death.

Normal, prolonged exposure heals your wounds and makes you immortal. The whole point of the collector was to collect the radiation particles for concentrated use. So I'm inclined to think they'd be more effective than the natural stuff and the only reason people wouldn't be immortal is because they aren't permanently exposed to the stuff.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death,

They do when the most comon thing shown is ships exploding.

most of the battles shown, doesn't mean most of the battles that happened. When the Jem'Hadar are attacking and occupying entire worlds like Betazed, that's where most of your casualties are going to come from.

Except I don't recall that many planetary invasions mentioned during DS9.

So a series of AR-558,

Most of the people there died quickly

the Ship

Not part of the war.

and Nor the Battle to the Strong scenarios.

Not only not part of the war, but not even against the Dominion

And casualties in those battles did not instantly equal death.

Um, in the only one of those that was actually during the Dominion War they did kind of instantly die when shot except for Nog.

Normal, prolonged exposure heals your wounds

It does not or else Anij wouldn,t have been dying after the fricken cave in.

So I'm inclined to think they'd be more effective than the natural stuff

Considering healing the injuried was never mentioned and would go against what was shown on screen I tend to disagree.